New Album Coming Soon? - Page 107 - Antsmarching.org Forums
Old 06-23-2021, 04:26 PM   #3181
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Re: New Album Coming Soon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slackdoodle View Post
So from Carson's notes I'm drawing a conclusion: Dave's songwriting went downhill once he began writing with Ballard. Something that Ballard taught him just broke the artist Dave Matthews who, by rights, should have put out the LWS in their original, artistically challenging form and allowed it to be a necessary dark spot in the catalog. Instead, he was encouraged or pushed to be more commercial friendly. And though he's bounced back somewhat, some kind of permanent damage was done. I don't know if Dave trusts in his own vision anymore. I think he's going back to producers for validation of his songwriting ideas.

Has he, though?
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  • Old 06-23-2021, 04:32 PM   #3182
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

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    Originally Posted by ericvol View Post
    Ever thought that if Dave never went to Ballard we wouldn’t have ever gotten anymore music at all from Dave of note after LWS? Maybe something he told him freed him to write again after he was obviously in a really rough spot.
    I think pushing through and finishing Busted Stuff with Lillywhite back in 2000 would've been very hard for Dave and the band. But it would've been their greatest work to date. There's always the possibility that things would've went south with them after. But I have no doubts that Dave Matthews would've continued to create going forward. It's in his dna.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 04:57 PM   #3183
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

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    Originally Posted by ExistenceNow View Post
    Has he, though?
    Yes. For certain.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 05:19 PM   #3184
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slackdoodle View Post
    So from Carson's notes I'm drawing a conclusion: Dave's songwriting went downhill once he began writing with Ballard. Something that Ballard taught him just broke the artist Dave Matthews who, by rights, should have put out the LWS in their original, artistically challenging form and allowed it to be a necessary dark spot in the catalog. Instead, he was encouraged or pushed to be more commercial friendly. And though he's bounced back somewhat, some kind of permanent damage was done. I don't know if Dave trusts in his own vision anymore. I think he's going back to producers for validation of his songwriting ideas.
    That's a very interesting take. Here's my long winded take:

    The Lillywhite Sessions / Everyday was a turning point, we all agree on that I think. By all accounts the band was in a shitty spot during the Lillywhite Sessions. I think the music had not as much to do with the decision to bail on the sessions as we might be led to believe. It seems apparent to me that someone had to be the fall guy in order for the band to move forward. Sort of like when a good team isn't playing well, someone has to take the fall so usually a coach or GM gets fired. It's harder to fire the players. Steve was the fall guy for sure. But perhaps he may have been part of what broke Dave? Maybe Steve was less the Captain he thought he was and more the tyrant? Maybe it was Steve's whip that broke an already fragile Dave Matthews, and pushed Dave to try writing with someone like Ballard, instead of giving up? If you were Bruce Flohr or RCA, you'd probably do whatever it took to save your star player from quitting the team and thus dissolving your own job/$$$. Ballard made Dave's job easier for sure and perhaps took enough pressure off Dave that Dave was then more willing to keep going with DMB instead of quitting altogether...?

    If I'm rewriting history, I let Dave quit DMB. I let him walk away and do whatever he felt like he needed to do, even if it meant the risk of never hearing from him again or risk of something tragic. I'd have tried to treat him more like a human being and less like a coattail I was riding. But I'm not a guy who's paycheck depended on DMB continuing as a band, if I was that guy, I'd have done anything I could do to make Dave stay, and make his job easier. Which might have meant hiring one of the most successful song writers on the planet to pair with him.

    Turning the discussion back to the new album again: Maybe the new album will be another turning point? And for Dave, maybe instead of hoping for him to "bounce back" as a songwriter it might be more worthwhile to be hopeful that he continues to evolve as a songwriter? That's what I get excited about whenever I think about whatever Dave might write next. The idea that there could still be something really special left in the tank that's waiting to come out. Even if it's far different than anything else he's previously done, when you're a freak talent like Dave, you can keep evolving and perhaps the stars align again.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 05:34 PM   #3185
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

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    Originally Posted by Carson31 View Post
    That's a very interesting take. Here's my long winded take:

    The Lillywhite Sessions / Everyday was a turning point, we all agree on that I think. By all accounts the band was in a shitty spot during the Lillywhite Sessions. I think the music had not as much to do with the decision to bail on the sessions as we might be led to believe. It seems apparent to me that someone had to be the fall guy in order for the band to move forward. Sort of like when a good team isn't playing well, someone has to take the fall so usually a coach or GM gets fired. It's harder to fire the players. Steve was the fall guy for sure. But perhaps he may have been part of what broke Dave? Maybe Steve was less the Captain he thought he was and more the tyrant? Maybe it was Steve's whip that broke an already fragile Dave Matthews, and pushed Dave to try writing with someone like Ballard, instead of giving up? If you were Bruce Flohr or RCA, you'd probably do whatever it took to save your star player from quitting the team and thus dissolving your own job/$$$. Ballard made Dave's job easier for sure and perhaps took enough pressure off Dave that Dave was then more willing to keep going with DMB instead of quitting altogether...?

    If I'm rewriting history, I let Dave quit DMB. I let him walk away and do whatever he felt like he needed to do, even if it meant the risk of never hearing from him again or risk of something tragic. I'd have tried to treat him more like a human being and less like a coattail I was riding. But I'm not a guy who's paycheck depended on DMB continuing as a band, if I was that guy, I'd have done anything I could do to make Dave stay, and make his job easier. Which might have meant hiring one of the most successful song writers on the planet to pair with him.

    Turning the discussion back to the new album again: Maybe the new album will be another turning point? And for Dave, maybe instead of hoping for him to "bounce back" as a songwriter it might be more worthwhile to be hopeful that he continues to evolve as a songwriter? That's what I get excited about whenever I think about whatever Dave might write next. The idea that there could still be something really special left in the tank that's waiting to come out. Even if it's far different than anything else he's previously done, when you're a freak talent like Dave, you can keep evolving and perhaps the stars align again.
    In your opinion, when Dave mentions the freedom of songwriting for these sessions, do you think this album could actually be something pretty special for him?

    My theory is Dave hasn't been very happy with either of the two albums after BW- now he seems to be really happy with the band's lineup and his own songwriting, so maybe this will be an album he's really proud of, like BW was to him. He seems to be obsessive when it comes to studio outings so my big hope is that this is finally the quality of album he's been itching to put out since BW.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 05:42 PM   #3186
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

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    Originally Posted by OneSweetMonkey View Post
    Yes. For certain.
    What songs are you referring to as Dave's second coming?
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    Old 06-23-2021, 05:53 PM   #3187
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ElijahSoRight72 View Post
    In your opinion, when Dave mentions the freedom of songwriting for these sessions, do you think this album could actually be something pretty special for him?

    My theory is Dave hasn't been very happy with either of the two albums after BW- now he seems to be really happy with the band's lineup and his own songwriting, so maybe this will be an album he's really proud of, like BW was to him. He seems to be obsessive when it comes to studio outings so my big hope is that this is finally the quality of album he's been itching to put out since BW.
    I definitely want to believe that the next album could be special for him. From what I know and what he has said, there was far less pressure this time around. He had months and months to himself where he supposedly spent a lot of time writing new music. I think most of us had spare time over the last year or so. Someone like Dave probably took on new musical challenges. I learned how to cook a little bit and now I make pretty damn good gumbo. I'm pretty proud of it actually, I look forward to making it so I can share it with my friends. So yeah, I'd like to think Dave was working on something that he feels is special, and I definitely get the impression that he wants to share it with everyone as soon as he can.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 06:00 PM   #3188
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carson31 View Post
    That's a very interesting take. Here's my long winded take:

    The Lillywhite Sessions / Everyday was a turning point, we all agree on that I think. By all accounts the band was in a shitty spot during the Lillywhite Sessions. I think the music had not as much to do with the decision to bail on the sessions as we might be led to believe. It seems apparent to me that someone had to be the fall guy in order for the band to move forward. Sort of like when a good team isn't playing well, someone has to take the fall so usually a coach or GM gets fired. It's harder to fire the players. Steve was the fall guy for sure. But perhaps he may have been part of what broke Dave? Maybe Steve was less the Captain he thought he was and more the tyrant? Maybe it was Steve's whip that broke an already fragile Dave Matthews, and pushed Dave to try writing with someone like Ballard, instead of giving up? If you were Bruce Flohr or RCA, you'd probably do whatever it took to save your star player from quitting the team and thus dissolving your own job/$$$. Ballard made Dave's job easier for sure and perhaps took enough pressure off Dave that Dave was then more willing to keep going with DMB instead of quitting altogether...?

    If I'm rewriting history, I let Dave quit DMB. I let him walk away and do whatever he felt like he needed to do, even if it meant the risk of never hearing from him again or risk of something tragic. I'd have tried to treat him more like a human being and less like a coattail I was riding. But I'm not a guy who's paycheck depended on DMB continuing as a band, if I was that guy, I'd have done anything I could do to make Dave stay, and make his job easier. Which might have meant hiring one of the most successful song writers on the planet to pair with him.

    Turning the discussion back to the new album again: Maybe the new album will be another turning point? And for Dave, maybe instead of hoping for him to "bounce back" as a songwriter it might be more worthwhile to be hopeful that he continues to evolve as a songwriter? That's what I get excited about whenever I think about whatever Dave might write next. The idea that there could still be something really special left in the tank that's waiting to come out. Even if it's far different than anything else he's previously done, when you're a freak talent like Dave, you can keep evolving and perhaps the stars align again.

    while reading the first paragraph i kept thinking, i wouldda let him quit with the hope of him coming back (maybe with DMB maybe on his own, maybe with a different band) in a year / two / three with that same writing style / mindset. who knows maybe we get another set or two of big 3s

    but then i read your second paragraph and felt like a corporate thief hahaha
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    I just wanted to check what the consensus on this song was so I could decide how I feel. I can't remember if we hate it or not because I didn't pay attention when it was more relevant. Sorry.
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    j. mayer could easily replace dave in dmb

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    Old 06-23-2021, 06:30 PM   #3189
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Dave has his writing moments were his genius peaks out. Squirm lyrics came to mind when reading some of these posts. It seems when he gets on a topic and fully focus’s on it we get the good Dave. The bad Dave is when he’s free wheeling kid songs and present cultural or political topics when he goes downhill. Aka be yourself, plastic girl, etc. Virginia in the rain feels like a song he fully focused on. Why I am we know he did and got a great result. Where as some of his other recent ones we either get a good line or two and decent chorus but music is boring. Or we get great music and shit lyrical topics. It’s when he puts them all together and doesn’t accept the song for what it initially is and fleshes it out we get the Dave we all came up loving.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:11 PM   #3190
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bibby1044 View Post
    Dave has his writing moments were his genius peaks out. Squirm lyrics came to mind when reading some of these posts. It seems when he gets on a topic and fully focus’s on it we get the good Dave. The bad Dave is when he’s free wheeling kid songs and present cultural or political topics when he goes downhill. Aka be yourself, plastic girl, etc. Virginia in the rain feels like a song he fully focused on. Why I am we know he did and got a great result. Where as some of his other recent ones we either get a good line or two and decent chorus but music is boring. Or we get great music and shit lyrical topics. It’s when he puts them all together and doesn’t accept the song for what it initially is and fleshes it out we get the Dave we all came up loving.
    Cry Freedom, Don't Drink The Water, Last Stop, Minarets, etc etc all political/political in nature, but absolutely amazing songs.

    It is when he is political with zero nuance that his songs take a dive. Dive In, for example. He spells everything out with his lyrics. I know exactly what he is talking about without any thought. On the other hand, Out of My Hands could have been a good song, but Dave decided to play piano on the track - I personally do not like dave's music on the piano.

    Here are lines from DDTW:
    Come out, come out, no use in hiding
    Come now, come now, can you not see?
    There's no place here, what were you expecting?
    No room for both, just room for me
    So you will lay your arms down
    Yes, I will call this home

    This is perfect writing, to me. He is clearly writing about the conquest of one people over another (Spanish vs. Aztecs, for example) but he doesn't reference Cortés or Montezuma. He doesn't speak in direct language. With his nuance, he speaks quite powerfully:

    What's that you say?
    Your father's spirit still lives in this place
    Well, I will silence you

    *** And to add - DDTW has to be one of Dave's easiest guitar parts. He can do so much with so little. He has the potential to be incredible. I happen to believe he will be great again - but I don't know if it will come now or sometime like in his 60's when he writes solo.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:17 PM   #3191
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    I really like Dive In
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:20 PM   #3192
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

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    Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34 View Post
    I really like Dive In
    To each their own. I personally can't:

    Now I saw a bear on T.V.
    And his friends were all drowning
    Because their homes were turning to water
    Strange kinda sad big old bear and
    I'm sure he would happily eat me
    He'd tear me to pieces out there
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:22 PM   #3193
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmbdreamingtree View Post
    To each their own. I personally can't:

    Now I saw a bear on T.V.
    And his friends were all drowning
    Because their homes were turning to water
    Strange kinda sad big old bear and
    I'm sure he would happily eat me
    He'd tear me to pieces out there
    Always thought the last two were that bear
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:23 PM   #3194
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34 View Post
    Always thought the last two were that bear
    I think you are right. I just googled the lyrics and copied and pasted - google isn't always right.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:26 PM   #3195
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmbdreamingtree View Post
    To each their own. I personally can't:

    Now I saw a bear on T.V.
    And his friends were all drowning
    Because their homes were turning to water
    Strange kinda sad big old bear and
    I'm sure he would happily eat me
    He'd tear me to pieces out there
    From the same exact song, and I would argue amongst some of Dave's best lyrics post-Stand Up:

    I have been thinking that lately the blood is increasing
    The tourniquet's not keeping hold in spite of our twisting
    Though we would like to believe we are
    We are not in control
    Though we would love to believe
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:28 PM   #3196
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34 View Post
    Always thought the last two were that bear
    I think he changes it live sometimes.

    Edit: I just listened and I think you're right.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 07:29 PM   #3197
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cscottrun View Post
    From the same exact song, and I would argue amongst some of Dave's best lyrics post-Stand Up:

    I have been thinking that lately the blood is increasing
    The tourniquet's not keeping hold in spite of our twisting
    Though we would like to believe we are
    We are not in control
    Though we would love to believe
    Good point. In all honesty I don’t mind Dive In. But there are lyrics I can’t stand. That is why I chose it as an example.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 08:15 PM   #3198
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Starving for dmb music I am starting to dream about new dmb songs. No shit.

    Last night I heard their entire new album. It was very good. Best since 2000 by far except it had one cover song that I don’t remember now but just stuck out and didn’t seem to fit.

    I remember two songs in particular.

    One you could tell was just a jam. Carter and lots of great dave guitar work. Flute solo by Jeff. Had tons of sections. Dave jamming Little bit like 95-96 jimi thing outro in concert when he took a solo

    Second song the main part was like a looping piano riff that sort of was playing against itself. Going up while another riff decended over it. Gave me Radiohead vibes. Had horns barking all over it and lyrics reminded me of if I had it all but more vague. I even remember some of them.

    “If I was the underworld
    I would open the doors

    If I was impossible
    I could drink anything

    But I’m not the anyone
    So just listen to me“


    You heard it here first
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    Old 06-23-2021, 08:19 PM   #3199
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bibby1044 View Post
    Virginia in the rain feels like a song he fully focused on.
    This
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    Old 06-23-2021, 08:39 PM   #3200
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    I get where people are coming from in a general sense and this has been talked about before but I never quite know what to think when it comes to people saying what Dave focused on or not. By the definition of many posters Christmas Song wasn't focused on properly.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 09:39 PM   #3201
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carson31 View Post
    That's a very interesting take. Here's my long winded take:

    The Lillywhite Sessions / Everyday was a turning point, we all agree on that I think. By all accounts the band was in a shitty spot during the Lillywhite Sessions. I think the music had not as much to do with the decision to bail on the sessions as we might be led to believe. It seems apparent to me that someone had to be the fall guy in order for the band to move forward. Sort of like when a good team isn't playing well, someone has to take the fall so usually a coach or GM gets fired. It's harder to fire the players. Steve was the fall guy for sure. But perhaps he may have been part of what broke Dave? Maybe Steve was less the Captain he thought he was and more the tyrant? Maybe it was Steve's whip that broke an already fragile Dave Matthews, and pushed Dave to try writing with someone like Ballard, instead of giving up? If you were Bruce Flohr or RCA, you'd probably do whatever it took to save your star player from quitting the team and thus dissolving your own job/$$$. Ballard made Dave's job easier for sure and perhaps took enough pressure off Dave that Dave was then more willing to keep going with DMB instead of quitting altogether...?

    If I'm rewriting history, I let Dave quit DMB. I let him walk away and do whatever he felt like he needed to do, even if it meant the risk of never hearing from him again or risk of something tragic. I'd have tried to treat him more like a human being and less like a coattail I was riding. But I'm not a guy who's paycheck depended on DMB continuing as a band, if I was that guy, I'd have done anything I could do to make Dave stay, and make his job easier. Which might have meant hiring one of the most successful song writers on the planet to pair with him.

    Turning the discussion back to the new album again: Maybe the new album will be another turning point? And for Dave, maybe instead of hoping for him to "bounce back" as a songwriter it might be more worthwhile to be hopeful that he continues to evolve as a songwriter? That's what I get excited about whenever I think about whatever Dave might write next. The idea that there could still be something really special left in the tank that's waiting to come out. Even if it's far different than anything else he's previously done, when you're a freak talent like Dave, you can keep evolving and perhaps the stars align again.
    This is the kind of substantial discussion I come to the boards for. Thanks for your ongoing contributions here, Carson.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 09:43 PM   #3202
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    I think Dave's (or a lot of lyricists) issues are not with cheesiness, but with cliche. I chose a song at random, Broken Things, and it reads like a list of idioms,

    You want to be so sure of
    Every step you take
    You cant always know what's coming
    You cant always trust the twist of fate
    Oh my love my heart is set on you, set on you
    Oh my love my heart is set on you, set on you

    You can be cheesy and still have good lyrics (look at Paul Simon incorporating "Cinematographer" in I know What I know, or Joni Mitchell rhyming "dish washer," with "coffee percolator" in Last Time I saw Richard) but you have to be specific and try to run away from too many cliches. One cliche is fine, a whole song of them, not so great. Sometimes cheesy is good because it brings the listener into an interesting foreign place. But specificity is probably the most important.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 10:41 PM   #3203
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    RE: Dive In

    The bear is about the real bear we all saw in the news, but is being used metaphorically AND literally because Dave cares about the planet and the animals that live on it. If you only listen to lyrics literally that's not on the writer. It's like Samurai Cop...that's using the real aspects of birth, growth, and life as much as a metaphor (but likely more) than literal references to those things.

    That said, it's all subjective. The best songwriters would never tell you what the song is about despite knowing what they were thinking when they wrote, the muse, meaning, etc. They let the song mean what it means to YOU. Dave has always written songs steeped in metaphor, simile, and other literary devices as well as songs that are super basic. Many are a combination of the two. The most unique stuff, however, has really been the music...the melodic ideas and the harmonic structure behind them. As we've discussed either in this thread of a myriad of others, this stuff is elevated by the band...they are his best filter.

    Anyway, looking forward to hearing some new music from the band.
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    Old 06-23-2021, 11:24 PM   #3204
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Snow Outside has to be up there with the top songs of the more recent era.

    Also worth noting that songs like Shotgun, Sugar Will, etc., are post-Ballard as well.
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    Old 06-24-2021, 01:15 AM   #3205
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OneSweetMonkey View Post
    Yes. For certain.

    Maybe there's a girl out there who thinks the lyrics on Come Tomorrow are good, and I guess That Girl Is You?
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    Old 06-24-2021, 01:16 AM   #3206
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Dive In is dreadful. Worst song in the catalog until Come Tomorrow was released.
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    Old 06-24-2021, 01:18 AM   #3207
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brianremy View Post
    I think Dave's (or a lot of lyricists) issues are not with cheesiness, but with cliche. I chose a song at random, Broken Things, and it reads like a list of idioms,

    You want to be so sure of
    Every step you take
    You cant always know what's coming
    You cant always trust the twist of fate
    Oh my love my heart is set on you, set on you
    Oh my love my heart is set on you, set on you

    You can be cheesy and still have good lyrics (look at Paul Simon incorporating "Cinematographer" in I know What I know, or Joni Mitchell rhyming "dish washer," with "coffee percolator" in Last Time I saw Richard) but you have to be specific and try to run away from too many cliches. One cliche is fine, a whole song of them, not so great. Sometimes cheesy is good because it brings the listener into an interesting foreign place. But specificity is probably the most important.

    I think Broken Things is a great song.
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    Old 06-24-2021, 01:23 AM   #3208
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    New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ExistenceNow View Post
    Dive In is dreadful. Worst song in the catalog until Come Tomorrow was released.

    I do not like either. The only version I listen once in a while is the Atlantic City 2011.06.26, which is ok.

    But when it comes to DMB song, I prefer to think in terms of more/less favorite than in terms of good or bad.

    There are some super celebrated early songs which remain in my less-favorite list… it is so subjective.
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    Old 06-24-2021, 01:28 AM   #3209
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Xcacel View Post
    I do not like either. The only version I listen once in a while is the Atlantic City 2011.06.26, which is ok.

    But when it comes to DMB song, I prefer to think in terms of more/less favorite than in terms of good or bad.

    There are some super celebrated early songs which remain in my less-favorite list… it is so subjective.

    That's fair. And I'm the same way for the most part with the catalog; I have my favorites and my less than favorites. But when we get to the bottom level stuff, I will legit say that I think it's just bad.

    But you're right, it's certainly all subjective. Some people think That Girl Is You is a masterpiece. I can't tell them that they're wrong, I can only run as fast as I can to the bathroom when it's played.
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    Old 06-24-2021, 01:32 AM   #3210
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    Re: New Album Coming Soon?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ExistenceNow View Post
    That's fair. And I'm the same way for the most part with the catalog; I have my favorites and my less than favorites. But when we get to the bottom level stuff, I will legit say that I think it's just bad.

    But you're right, it's certainly all subjective. Some people think That Girl Is You is a masterpiece. I can't tell them that they're wrong, I can only run as fast as I can to the bathroom when it's played.

    Hahahaha lol
    Imagine that at the last concert I’ve been to I’ve chosen Satellite to do that (it belong to the ones I was talking’ about)
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