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Old 09-17-2012, 10:42 AM   #31
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Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggajm18 View Post
to me, though, these songs sound half-finished. he tried to write new songs and got halfway there, but just didn't finish them.

i mean, you cannot seriously say that dave didn't get lazy while writing 'mercy'......
You can make that argument for Mercy, but think about all kinds of other songs that you could make that argument for. If you are going to say Mercy is a lazy song, you can say that for Lover Lay Down, Let You Down, Captain, even Crash. I'm not saying those songs are or Mercy is, just trying to make my argument for why it shouldn't be considered that. When I think Mercy, I think simple, chill, relaxing song and that's what those are too.
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  • Old 09-17-2012, 10:47 AM   #32
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jiggajm18 View Post
    i don't understand why there is all this talk about boyd on this album. he only has a few solos. yes, they do sound great but some people are talking about it like he owned this album.
    He's also more integrated into the songs as a whole. On BW I think I could hear him for a grand total of a minute, maybe two.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 10:51 AM   #33
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jiggajm18 View Post
    i don't understand why there is all this talk about boyd on this album. he only has a few solos. yes, they do sound great but some people are talking about it like he owned this album.
    His work in the background ensemble of the songs is amazing.

    I'm sorry that you need someone to yell "AND NOW BOYD TINSLEY!" and then have all other instrumentation drop out for you to appropriate his work, but he's done a hell of a job on this album.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 10:56 AM   #34
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    These threads are brutal. I like it the more I listen to it. Solid good all around record. The only song I dislike is Sweet. We hear more of Boyd, Tim is toned down somewhat...I don't see how anyone could think BW is better than AFTW. Where the hell was Boyd on BW?
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:01 AM   #35
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    These threads are brutal. I like it the more I listen to it. Solid good all around record. The only song I dislike is Sweet. We hear more of Boyd, Tim is toned down somewhat...I don't see how anyone could think BW is better than AFTW. Where the hell was Boyd on BW?
    have you listened to gaucho or rooftop? tim is obnoxious

    (i'm a tim fan......)
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:03 AM   #36
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by arizza11 View Post
    You can make that argument for Mercy, but think about all kinds of other songs that you could make that argument for. If you are going to say Mercy is a lazy song, you can say that for Lover Lay Down, Let You Down, Captain, even Crash. I'm not saying those songs are or Mercy is, just trying to make my argument for why it shouldn't be considered that. When I think Mercy, I think simple, chill, relaxing song and that's what those are too.
    c'mon, it's blatantly obvious in the second verse.

    "me and you and you and you
    just wanna be free, yeaaaaaaaaa"

    "gotta get together, yea
    gotta get, gotta get, gotta get"

    jesus.......
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:09 AM   #37
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jiggajm18 View Post
    to me, though, these songs sound half-finished. he tried to write new songs and got halfway there, but just didn't finish them.

    i mean, you cannot seriously say that dave didn't get lazy while writing 'mercy'......
    It's funny... Dave said in one of the segments with Rodrigo that this was one of the songs he fought hardest with.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:13 AM   #38
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jiggajm18 View Post
    c'mon, it's blatantly obvious in the second verse.

    "me and you and you and you
    just wanna be free, yeaaaaaaaaa"

    "gotta get together, yea
    gotta get, gotta get, gotta get"

    jesus.......
    If you want to go through the catalog of DMB songs with lyrics like that, then I'd gladly take that walk with you.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:17 AM   #39
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    These threads are brutal. I like it the more I listen to it. Solid good all around record. The only song I dislike is Sweet. We hear more of Boyd, Tim is toned down somewhat...I don't see how anyone could think BW is better than AFTW. Where the hell was Boyd on BW?
    For me, the presence of Boyd is very low on the list of what makes or breaks a DMB album. It comes down to Dave and his song writing and my first impressions of BW were better than AFTW.

    I'm also enjoying Sweet, so I guess our musical preferences are slightly different.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:18 AM   #40
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by barbogast View Post
    Your argument is flawed. You say:



    ...but if these same songs had been given to Cavallo/Harris (or especially Batson or Ballard) the production would not be as good, resulting in a much worse product. I guess what I'm trying to say is Steve Lillywhite brings out the most in the band, and really leaves his mark on each album he produces. I do not think as good a product would've resulted with any other producer. It's not really fair to just say "if the names were swapped" because the end product would be much different.

    Therefore yes, it deserves the praise it gets.
    There is nothing "flawed" about his argument. He is simply putting forward a hypothetical where, say, DMB management pulled a fast one on everyone and lied about who the real producer was. Of course it is more likely (although certainly not guaranteed) that Lillywhite would put out a better record than comparable producers, but that doesn't take away from his argument. And, for the record, I completely agree with this argument; if we were to associate any of DMB's other producers with this album fans would like it slightly less (although the real problems are the actual songs themselves, specifically the mail-in lyrics)
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:19 AM   #41
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jiggajm18 View Post
    i don't understand why there is all this talk about boyd on this album. he only has a few solos. yes, they do sound great but some people are talking about it like he owned this album.
    Not solo related for me, he is worked into every song nicely, has parts on all of them that at least stand out. I cannot say that was the case on BW at all.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:23 AM   #42
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
    These threads are brutal. I like it the more I listen to it. Solid good all around record. The only song I dislike is Sweet. We hear more of Boyd, Tim is toned down somewhat...I don't see how anyone could think BW is better than AFTW. Where the hell was Boyd on BW?
    If your first thought of why AFTW is better than BW is because it includes Boyd more, I think you are missing the theme of the complaints around here. Yes, all else being equal, more Boyd is better than less, and I agree Lillywhite has a good track record of including Boyd. However, no offense to Boyd, but his inclusion in songs is not what makes a song good, but rather I would argue is an ancillary piece that enhances a song. It's why 90%+ of DMB's songs can be played D&T and still sound great. The people (like myself) who believe that in whole, the BW songs are stronger understand that Boyd doesn't have a large role in those songs, but nevertheless recognize that the melodies and the lyrics are strong enough to compensate for Boyd's absence.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:28 AM   #43
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

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    Originally Posted by drop2d View Post
    It's funny... Dave said in one of the segments with Rodrigo that this was one of the songs he fought hardest with.
    okay so maybe he wasn't lazy in not attempting it but it certainly isn't finished.
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:29 AM   #44
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by arizza11 View Post
    If you want to go through the catalog of DMB songs with lyrics like that, then I'd gladly take that walk with you.
    i'm not disputing that at all
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    Old 09-17-2012, 11:30 AM   #45
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by splack03 View Post
    There is nothing "flawed" about his argument. He is simply putting forward a hypothetical where, say, DMB management pulled a fast one on everyone and lied about who the real producer was. Of course it is more likely (although certainly not guaranteed) that Lillywhite would put out a better record than comparable producers, but that doesn't take away from his argument. And, for the record, I completely agree with this argument; if we were to associate any of DMB's other producers with this album fans would like it slightly less (although the real problems are the actual songs themselves, specifically the mail-in lyrics)
    and bingo was his name-o
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    Old 09-17-2012, 02:02 PM   #46
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

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    Originally Posted by Kshathra View Post
    I couldn't agree more with the OP.

    I see AFTW as an inverse of Busted Stuff. Whereas Busted Stuff featured mediocre performances of really amazing songs, AFTW has really amazing performances of really mediocre songs. Lillywhite did HIS job very well--the band (and really, Dave) just missed the mark a bit this time out. It's not BAD; I want to like it and had really high hopes, but it's just boring and uninspired. Too many bad lyrics, too many predictable and/or nonexistent melodies.

    Nothing illustrates this for me better than "Drunken Soldier." I had such high hopes for that song--I wanted nothing more to hear Jeff, Tim, Rashawn, and hell even Boyd shred over a 4 minute outro. When I listened through the album for the first time and was generally underwhelmed with what I was hearing, I always thought "well just wait until Drunken Soldier!" And when I got there, I just heard a cool-but-noodly, some decent riffing, then some TERRIBLE lyrics, a few more cool riffs, a few more terrible lyrics, then a reasonably promising outro that just... faded out.

    I may be the only person in all of DMB fandom who thought "that's it!?" at the end of "Drunken Soldier." You could trim it down to 5 minutes in length and the song wouldn't suffer at all. "Squirm" was WAY more epic at half the length. I was hoping for the DMB equivalent of Umphrey McGee's "Mantis"--an epic with all sorts of cool disparate sections that builds to a climax that really states what the band is about. What I got was a cheesy carpe diem song with an extra long intro and outro.

    So, like the album, it has all sorts of ingredients I SHOULD like, but it misses the mark (particularly in the melody and lyrics departments) as often as it hits, and never really NAILS it. The album comes out to less than the sum of its parts.

    It is what it is. I gave up trying to analyze the overall direction of this band years ago, so I don't have the "the sky is falling" feeling that I felt when Everyday and Stand Up hit. DMB is a veteran band that's released 8 albums, and when you release 8 albums they can't all be the best. They've released 3 masterpieces, 2 very enjoyable but imperfect albums (BS and BW), 2 turds (ED and SU), and one that's not horrible but just really boring (AFTW). Most bands would kill to have a track record like that.

    Hopefully they go back to Lillywhite again for the next one, and maybe they'll hit it closer to the mark then.
    As the OP of this thread, I fully support this comment

    AFTW is not a bad album, but it certainly feels like a half-hearted or possibly unfinished album from a songwriting perspective. Lillywhite did an AMAZING job with what he had to work with, essentially. There are indeed many layers to his production, a few of his trademarks sprinkled along the way (Carter talking at the top of "Soldier" calls back to "LIOG" nicely).

    But this album feels very directionless. At times it's Dave's second solo album. Other times it's like Stand Up/Everyday. And thanks to Lillywhite, it occasionally kind of feels like a Big 3 album. Kind of.

    If Batson produced AFTW, there would be many threads calling this album "Stand Up, Part 2."

    If Cavallo produced it, people would say it's like Big Whiskey's B-sides with a few gems along the way.

    But it's Lillywhite, so myself and many other fans had high hopes -- essentially wanting to truly LOVE the album. And in the end? Meh, it's not bad. Not great, not terrible. It is what it is, as people say.

    (NOTE: Yes, I'm aware that putting Batson or Cavallo as producer on AFTW would yield a much different experience for the listener in the end. My point was more to showcase the attraction to the Lillywhite name, not necessarily his talents as a producer. But I mean really... can you imagine the AFTW songs under Batson's guidance?? Yikes... )
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    Old 09-18-2012, 02:27 AM   #47
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by arizza11 View Post
    You can make that argument for Mercy, but think about all kinds of other songs that you could make that argument for. If you are going to say Mercy is a lazy song, you can say that for Lover Lay Down, Let You Down, Captain, even Crash. I'm not saying those songs are or Mercy is, just trying to make my argument for why it shouldn't be considered that. When I think Mercy, I think simple, chill, relaxing song and that's what those are too.
    I think Mercy is musically quite beautiful and complete.

    Lyrically, it's par for the course with post Some Devil Dave.
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    Old 09-18-2012, 03:52 AM   #48
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    I said it before but this album feels closest to "Some Devil" IMO, as in mostly a Dave solo.

    I'm one of those people who is on their 3rd copies of UTTAD and Crash (from extensive use) and have to think anyone who became a fan then, wouldn't dare compare those last 2 albums to them.

    I'm going to be on an island on this one but I consider "Busted Stuff" songs chronilogically before Everyday, and the only album since Busted Stuff that I got excited about was "Stand Up." Just for the simple reason that it was kind of a coming out album for Stefan and that it was simply their funkiest album ever, and far from perfect.
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    Old 09-18-2012, 08:15 AM   #49
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Drunken Soldier is incredibly overrated, it has no flow and the lyrics are embarassing, other than that it is a solid album and better than Big Whiskey.
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    Old 09-18-2012, 12:30 PM   #50
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Well I'll give you a few reasons why this album is way better than BW. First, Boyd is all over this album. He had one solo on BW. Cavallo didn't know how to utilize Boyd and incorporate him into the songs. Second, compare the album closers... you have Drunken Soldier versus You and Me. Right there that should give you a strong agrument why this album is 100% better than BW.
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    Old 09-18-2012, 05:27 PM   #51
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
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    Well I'll give you a few reasons why this album is way better than BW. First, Boyd is all over this album. He had one solo on BW. Cavallo didn't know how to utilize Boyd and incorporate him into the songs. Second, compare the album closers... you have Drunken Soldier versus You and Me. Right there that should give you a strong agrument why this album is 100% better than BW.
    Really weak reasons to declare AFTW better. The first point I've already addressed before so I'll briefly rehash: all else being equal, more Boyd is usually better, however the core of most DMB songs are derived from creative music, interesting lyrics, and original guitar riffs. It's why 90%+ of the songs are easily translatable to D&T, and often people think many of the songs sound better exclusively D&T. Therefore, to say that AFTW is better simply because Boyd is used more doesn't even begin to adequately compare songs, but rather compares fringe ancillary benefits.

    The second claim is more preposterous. You are comparing the strongest song of AFTW versus the weakest song off BW. Sure, they both are the album closers, and I guess some weight goes into the "order" of songs of an album, but I think we can all agree that the actual quality of the songs as a whole FAR outweighs what order they are in. I bet there are many people on here that think Drunken Soldier is a stronger song than Spoon (I would disagree, but it's a reasonable opinion). Does that mean that AFTW has a legitimate argument as a better album that BTCS? Give me a break.
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    Old 09-18-2012, 06:50 PM   #52
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34 View Post
    Drunken Soldier is incredibly overrated, it has no flow and the lyrics are embarassing, other than that it is a solid album and better than Big Whiskey.
    you mentioned flow and lyrics, but what about the technicality of the music...among the band's best ever.
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    Old 09-18-2012, 07:11 PM   #53
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

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    woahhhhhh that is very false If Only completely blows away Spaceman.
    musically, yes. Lyrically, not a chance
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    Old 09-18-2012, 07:28 PM   #54
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jasonfilatov View Post
    you mentioned flow and lyrics, but what about the technicality of the music...among the band's best ever.
    So as long as a song is complicated in its production it can lack flow and lyrics?
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    Old 09-18-2012, 07:33 PM   #55
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34 View Post
    Drunken Soldier is incredibly overrated, it has no flow and the lyrics are embarassing, other than that it is a solid album and better than Big Whiskey.
    I remember when people didnt like the stone when BTCS came out
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    Old 09-18-2012, 07:39 PM   #56
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

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    I remember when people didnt like the stone when BTCS came out
    what?!?!?
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    Old 09-18-2012, 07:52 PM   #57
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
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    I remember when people didnt like the stone when BTCS came out
    I remember when DMB played with Blues Traveler at MSG in 1995
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    Old 09-18-2012, 07:54 PM   #58
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pele69 View Post
    I remember when people didnt like the stone when BTCS came out
    I remember this, too.

    I remember a friend who said that BTCS sucked until Stay.
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    Old 09-18-2012, 07:58 PM   #59
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jasonfilatov View Post
    you mentioned flow and lyrics, but what about the technicality of the music...among the band's best ever.
    By that criteria Funny the Way It Is, I Did It, Fool to Think, and Spaceman are better than Dreaming Tree, #41, Bartender and Don't Drink the Water
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    Old 09-18-2012, 11:05 PM   #60
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    Re: AFTW overrated because of Lillywhite?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kshathra View Post
    I couldn't agree more with the OP.

    I see AFTW as an inverse of Busted Stuff. Whereas Busted Stuff featured mediocre performances of really amazing songs, AFTW has really amazing performances of really mediocre songs. Lillywhite did HIS job very well--the band (and really, Dave) just missed the mark a bit this time out. It's not BAD; I want to like it and had really high hopes, but it's just boring and uninspired. Too many bad lyrics, too many predictable and/or nonexistent melodies.

    Nothing illustrates this for me better than "Drunken Soldier." I had such high hopes for that song--I wanted nothing more to hear Jeff, Tim, Rashawn, and hell even Boyd shred over a 4 minute outro. When I listened through the album for the first time and was generally underwhelmed with what I was hearing, I always thought "well just wait until Drunken Soldier!" And when I got there, I just heard a cool-but-noodly, some decent riffing, then some TERRIBLE lyrics, a few more cool riffs, a few more terrible lyrics, then a reasonably promising outro that just... faded out.

    I may be the only person in all of DMB fandom who thought "that's it!?" at the end of "Drunken Soldier." You could trim it down to 5 minutes in length and the song wouldn't suffer at all. "Squirm" was WAY more epic at half the length. I was hoping for the DMB equivalent of Umphrey McGee's "Mantis"--an epic with all sorts of cool disparate sections that builds to a climax that really states what the band is about. What I got was a cheesy carpe diem song with an extra long intro and outro.

    So, like the album, it has all sorts of ingredients I SHOULD like, but it misses the mark (particularly in the melody and lyrics departments) as often as it hits, and never really NAILS it. The album comes out to less than the sum of its parts.

    It is what it is. I gave up trying to analyze the overall direction of this band years ago, so I don't have the "the sky is falling" feeling that I felt when Everyday and Stand Up hit. DMB is a veteran band that's released 8 albums, and when you release 8 albums they can't all be the best. They've released 3 masterpieces, 2 very enjoyable but imperfect albums (BS and BW), 2 turds (ED and SU), and one that's not horrible but just really boring (AFTW). Most bands would kill to have a track record like that.

    Hopefully they go back to Lillywhite again for the next one, and maybe they'll hit it closer to the mark then.
    Good points, Eric. I tend to agree.

    Lillywhite working with the band is definitely going to bring overhype, no matter what kind of finished product they put out. And that's cool with me. The more I listen to this album, I find the music is great, and there are a few, clever lyrical takeaways. But, on the whole, does it resonate with me like tLWS or some of the other albums from the '90s? - not even close. I take it for what it is.

    In my opinion, no other producer gets how to channel DMB's sounds quite like Steve. And if it takes an effort like AFTW, with all it's positives and negatives, to kickstart a working relationship in the studio between the band and Lillywhite, I'll take it. I feel like they're moving in the right direction after cratering with SU, and maybe the next studio effort will yield some stronger lyrics to go with the outstanding musicianship.
    __________________
    ~EJ~

    Last edited by qm247; 09-18-2012 at 11:07 PM.
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