Why Cornbread Is Lyrically Better Than Dreaming Tree

[RiotAct]

Originally Posted by HolyCow

I almost think the OP is proving some kind of point here.

That would be interesting. To have the anti-ML. A guy that hates pre-2000 DMB but loves everything since. And complains about setlists lacking YMDT, Cornbread and Bayou, and gripes about #41, Ants and Two Step. And while making all his points, he defends them by turning every debate into some sort of wannabe intellectual discussion, diverting attention from his absurd opinion and all the times he's slammed. I think this would be great.

Originally Posted by RSSR

God, I hope someone up to the task would step forward to do do something like this. The hours of hilarity of watching this individual and MistreatedLewis bicker back and forth among each other would be so worth it.

I'll do it.

[DMBBeav]

Originally Posted by z28snksknr

I think the OP was a great attempt at trying to convey an educated and thought provoking thread. Unfortunately, since all of the arguments contradict the intended purpose of the thread, it makes for utter nonsense.

1. You are saying that Cornbread is better than DT because they can't (or shouldnt be) compared based on their intent or purpose as a song. That makes no sense. "This" is better than "that" because they are too different to compare. "Cars" are better than "bread" because a car can drive, although bread is delicious.... That is the type of argument you present here.

2. You say that DT has repetitive and short lyrics whereas the "better" Cornbread repeats juvenile lyrics consistently throughout the song. Again, this argument holds no water. Repetition in songs is what makes up the structure of song- verse, refrain, chorus (repeat). Go here and read: http://musiced.about.com/od/othermus...rtsofasong.htm

3. You reference that DT's lyrics do not live up to the "potential" of the song, where CB does. I think "potential" of a song is a bit too vague of a term that is way too overtly objective to be used as a valid argument. Comparing percieved "potential" is like saying "I don't like it, so it could be better", which is pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.

4. You state that since DT's lines are short (because of Dave's writing limitations apparently), they cannot better CB's lines which are 2-3 words longer in most cases. I counter this by asking what is more profound- communicating a deep and soul searching message with only 7 words, or blabbering on (repeatedly) about oral sex for 4 min? Length of lyrical lines has no correlation to quality, substance, or any other metric you mention.

I'll stop here since my other arguments are subjective instead of just pointing out how your argument is not well thought out, contradicts it's intent, and holds no water based on structure rather than content.

Objective opinions about which song is better aside, you have no valid argument or point to your post.

Let me pull a trick here, I like your post. And you note you don't even get too deep into the surface.

The OP has a terrible post empty on substance and I find it hilarious how many people begin their posts with "I admire your post"....it goes to show if someone says "lyrics matter within the song, not on a piece of paper"(no shit, really?) people will think that means this guy MUST know what he is talking about...when his point is totally lost.

[JohnK86]

Originally Posted by z28snksknr

I think the OP was a great attempt at trying to convey an educated and thought provoking thread. Unfortunately, since all of the arguments contradict the intended purpose of the thread, it makes for utter nonsense.

1. You are saying that Cornbread is better than DT because they can't (or shouldnt be) compared based on their intent or purpose as a song. That makes no sense. "This" is better than "that" because they are too different to compare. "Cars" are better than "bread" because a car can drive, although bread is delicious.... That is the type of argument you present here.

2. You say that DT has repetitive and short lyrics whereas the "better" Cornbread repeats juvenile lyrics consistently throughout the song. Again, this argument holds no water. Repetition in songs is what makes up the structure of song- verse, refrain, chorus (repeat). Go here and read: http://musiced.about.com/od/othermus...rtsofasong.htm

3. You reference that DT's lyrics do not live up to the "potential" of the song, where CB does. I think "potential" of a song is a bit too vague of a term that is way too overtly objective to be used as a valid argument. Comparing percieved "potential" is like saying "I don't like it, so it could be better", which is pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.

4. You state that since DT's lines are short (because of Dave's writing limitations apparently), they cannot better CB's lines which are 2-3 words longer in most cases. I counter this by asking what is more profound- communicating a deep and soul searching message with only 7 words, or blabbering on (repeatedly) about oral sex for 4 min? Length of lyrical lines has no correlation to quality, substance, or any other metric you mention.

I'll stop here since my other arguments are subjective instead of just pointing out how your argument is not well thought out, contradicts it's intent, and holds no water based on structure rather than content.

Objective opinions about which song is better aside, you have no valid argument or point to your post.

Ponts 1,2 and 4 are false. You are horribly misquoting me. Point 3 has to do with subjectivity, which is certainly present in my post, as was intended.

[harmon25]

I didn't read through this much, but DT was written in a much different time of the band and Dave's life...its lyrics are much deeper than Cornbread will ever be.

And to say you don't like the DT rift is INSANE.

[sheldonlevene]

This is my favorite thread ever.

edit: yay 200

[SpotInTheMiddle]

Problem with threads like this is that it forces people to focus on negatives. In this case, everything Cornbread isn't in comparison to Dreaming Tree.

Cornbread has been a great, fun song live for 2 years now. I've seen it 17 times since 2007 and I'm still not tired of it. At a time when we needed new tunes pretty bad this was a breath of fresh air if you ask me. Just recognize it for what it's supposed to be and leave it at that.

[sheldonlevene]

Originally Posted by SpotInTheMiddle

Problem with threads like this is that it forces people to focus on negatives. In this case, everything Cornbread isn't in comparison to Dreaming Tree.

Cornbread has been a great, fun song live for 2 years now. I've seen it 17 times since 2007 and I'm still not tired of it. At a time when we needed new tunes pretty bad this was a breath of fresh air if you ask me. Just recognize it for what it's supposed to be and leave it at that.

Holy shit. I would be tired of it, but I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said.

[kydmb99]

Just because something is written well and is lengthy doesn't mean it's not completely wrong.... Just a thought.

[Steed23]

you've got balls to say that The Dreaming Tree (many feel that this is the hidden gem, on the very popular Before These Crowded Streets) is not lyrically on par with Cornbread (the song that the lyrics seem to get worse and worse everytime it is performed)

you've got balls and I like your style.


Give me a thread on why Stand Up, Everyday and Busted Stuff are better than Before These Crowded Streets, Crash and Under the Table and Dreaming

[PhishSticks40]

It's just simply not. At all.

[SeekNUpEmotion]

Originally Posted by ozboaz

Wow. Im more offended that you don't like the DT bass line. But to each his own...

You're offended?



Hey everybody! I think I found Fonz!

[sugarwill7]

Originally Posted by jamesscherer

To say they are not in the same league and shouldn't be compared really cuts off critical thought. I'm sure all of us who are in favor of healthy debate would prefer an explanation of why you like those songs more. That said, I do like all of those songs more than cornbread. Too Much is about equal in terms of musical complexity (the verse is one chord) but has better lyrics, Billies is about equal in terms of creative lyrics but has much better music, WWYS has much better music and although the lyrics seem like nonsense I think they suit the song very well, and do a great job at makin me shake my ass. That's why I agree with you about those being better, not just because they are in a different league.

edit: i was mixing up what you said and what someone else said, but the same thing goes for saying "its mindblowing" and they are not in the same league

I like them more because they are about 1,000x more aesthically pleasing to me than Cornbread, both musically and lyrically. I am not qualified for or interested in debates involing music theory. By saying they aren't in the same league, I am in effect comparing them. The term "there is no comparison" doesn't mean literally that you can't distinguish between different factors of the songs, it means that the two things being compared aren't even close to being the same quality (I thought this was common knowledge in the real world but this is the second time in two days I've seen this clarified on Ants). After comparison, I don't consider Cornbread to be in the same league as Too Much, WWYS, Billies, or the Dreaming Tree and find it mindblowing that anyone else could. That is my opinion, take it or leave it.

[SeekNUpEmotion]

I don't understand why anybody would bother arguing with the OP. He stated that he liked Cornbread than Dreaming Tree and had words to back it up.
Why try to "Prove him wrong" or tell him he's wrong when that is what he thinks. That's his opinion. Can't we just leave it be?

[aoeiifreak]

Originally Posted by sugarwill7

I like them more because they are about 1,000x more aesthically pleasing to me than Cornbread, both musically and lyrically. I am not qualified for or interested in debates involing music theory. By saying they aren't in the same league, I am in effect comparing them. The term "there is no comparison" doesn't mean literally that you can't distinguish between different factors of the songs, it means that the two things being compared aren't even close to being the same quality (I thought this was common knowledge in the real world but this is the second time in two days I've seen this clarified on Ants). After comparison, I don't consider Cornbread to be in the same league as Too Much, WWYS, Billies, or the Dreaming Tree and find it mindblowing that anyone else could. That is my opinion, take it or leave it.

Completely agree. A lot of songs have "nonsensical" lyrics (LIOG being one of them, which is my favorite song), but Cornbread's lyrics are atrocious in my opinion. If i want to hear about getting "cornbread", I'll listen to Lil' Wayne. Tripping Billies, LIOG, and WWYS all have "nonsensical" lyrics, but they fit the songs perfectly. Cornbread, not so much.

[jakesomedevil41]

i haven't read all the posts here, but the title to me says it all. while i don't think cornbread's lyrics are better than dreaming tree, i do think that they fit perfectly. what better lyrics could there be for this song? part of writing lyrics is writing and delivering something that fits the music, and cornbread does exactly that.

[bigmac#41]

I can't believe I wasted my time reading that long winded bit of nonsense. These are two completely different types of song and as much as I like both, Cornbread has nothing on DT! I agree with a previous poster in saying this post is utter blasphemy!!!

[DMBBeav]

Originally Posted by kydmb99

Just because something is written well and is lengthy doesn't mean it's not completely wrong.... Just a thought.

It also doesn't mean it has a cohesive point(which the OP's post does not).

[SpecialAgent007]

Originally Posted by JohnK86

Thanks for your addition. I understand and accept your thoughts on this, and our opinions on the quality of DT differ because of different tastes. I´ve listened to the song for years, and gradually liked it less and less. It seems that what you enjoy in the song, lyrically, simply doesn´t impress me.

The lyrics alone aren't inherently impressive. Their's nothing really profound introduced to the world in the lyrics; certainly not in the melody. But again, in my mind, thinking as a composer or songwriter, oftentimes less is more. There is so much going on harmonically in this song that actively conveys a story in its own right that the lyrics only need to serve as a guide. What I have grown to love about Dreaming Tree isn't so much the story it tells in the song so much as the story it stirs up in my head as I listen. It's thought provoking. It's a reality check. The music brings the weight and the lyrics serve as the introductory comments and questions to get the listener thinking.

Again, I'm not saying that the lyrics are brilliant. Would Paul Simon probably come up with something a lot more colorful with more unique images? Probably. But intentional or not, I oftentimes think it a strength of Dave's that he doesn't get overly clever. He brings universally-understood situations to the table that everyone can relate to or feel and leaves space for the listener to find their own story in it. While there are times where I want to be spoon fed something brilliant and just sit in awe of the greatness of a string of lines, there is still something to be said for a song that is simply emotive.

[rickyh24]

you got to be kidding.

[z28snksknr]

[quote=JohnK86;9683125]
....Music is sound, not text. Poetry is text.

.....If I were to critique this from a poets point of view(which I am not).....

.....when I analyse the lyric, from a listeners point of view, as a part of a song, I reach for different functions.

.....What differentiates a sung piece of music from an instrumental is actually not as simple as it might seem. Now, I can´t get into the details of every argument and theory here...

.....Dave Matthews sometimes uses his voice like an instrumental instrument....

....The rhythm of the vocal melody in the verse follows the odd-meter of the groove, although it accentuates a different beat......

The rhythm and the rhymes are very "nursery-rhymy....

....Dave tried to write an epic lyric for an epic piece of music, but failed.

....in my opinion, the different "functions" or "potentias" (or whatever) of different songs, are all acceptable....

....I mean the whole "dancing with the devil..." verse is clever, fun, and unheard of, just like WWYS or something.....

....Even with these notable transitions, the song never loses sound,....

....The only exception is the "it soars" part, which does deliver because of the shift in vocal range and lyrical tone....

quote]



Here are some reasons no one is taking you seriously. Do yourself a favor and steer clear of writing things like this if you don't want to get shit upon.

[stoneje]

Originally Posted by SpecialAgent007

The lyrics alone aren't inherently impressive. Their's nothing really profound introduced to the world in the lyrics; certainly not in the melody. But again, in my mind, thinking as a composer or songwriter, oftentimes less is more. There is so much going on harmonically in this song that actively conveys a story in its own right that the lyrics only need to serve as a guide. What I have grown to love about Dreaming Tree isn't so much the story it tells in the song so much as the story it stirs up in my head as I listen. It's thought provoking. It's a reality check. The music brings the weight and the lyrics serve as the introductory comments and questions to get the listener thinking.

Again, I'm not saying that the lyrics are brilliant. Would Paul Simon probably come up with something a lot more colorful with more unique images? Probably. But intentional or not, I oftentimes think it a strength of Dave's that he doesn't get overly clever. He brings universally-understood situations to the table that everyone can relate to or feel and leaves space for the listener to find their own story in it. While there are times where I want to be spoon fed something brilliant and just sit in awe of the greatness of a string of lines, there is still something to be said for a song that is simply emotive.

So, to sum up:
Dave Matthews is not Paul Simon

[RSSR]

The hilarious nonsensical absurdity of this very idea inspired me to look for this thread.

Corn Bread > The Dreaming Tree