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Old 03-11-2019, 07:17 AM   #2731
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Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

daaaaang, Boeing.
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  • Old 03-11-2019, 07:28 AM   #2732
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    If this is the same issue as the Lion Air crash, isn't this more of an educational/pilot error thing? Didn't Boeing document the changes to the systems/procedures after that incident and tell everyone to be aware of them?
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    Old 03-11-2019, 07:28 AM   #2733
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aeroshady View Post
    I flew Lion Air from Denpasar to Jakarta in July 2017. The aircraft seemed in pretty good shape, however, it took off 2 hours late for really no reason and when we landed, we had a connecting flight to make. Lion Air decided to help us out by letting us walk down the jetway stairs and being allowed to enter (climb) into the planes luggage compartment to self-retrieve our own bags.

    I had no idea that Lion Air was blacklisted for safety back when I flew them. I feel lucky that we didn't have any major issues. RIP to those lost.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/traffic-s...114052646.html
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    I just booked multiple segments throughout SE Asia and every time Malaysian Airlines or Lion Air came up I was like NOPE. Not flying those..........
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by recentlyJTR41 View Post
    Yeah don't think I'd ever board a plane in Asia unless it was Japan
    All evidence points this being an issue with Boeing. Ethiopian Airlines has a very high safety rating.
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    Old 03-11-2019, 07:29 AM   #2734
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Cayman Airways has grounded their MAX8 which was running the new route from Denver, CO > GCM, until a full investigation can be completed.
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    Old 03-11-2019, 11:07 AM   #2735
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    I'm reading Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" and last night I read a chapter about plane crashes. It was fascinating read about how countries that favor authority more than others are more likely to have crashes than those who don't.

    Highly suggest the book but the chapter at the very least very informative.
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    Old 03-11-2019, 11:23 AM   #2736
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    It was weird to read that China was like "ground everything, we don't fuck around with safety pre-cautions."

    People will read this as they literally choke on air...
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    Old 03-11-2019, 06:31 PM   #2737
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Southwest just changed flights for me at no charge based on my original flights being on the Max 8. Honestly feel a little better about doing it, and also wonder whether that was a preemptive strike for the model being grounded in the coming days.
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    Old 03-12-2019, 08:16 AM   #2738
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Concur with the grounding.
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    Old 03-12-2019, 09:06 AM   #2739
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by WidespreadMule3 View Post
    I'm reading Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" and last night I read a chapter about plane crashes. It was fascinating read about how countries that favor authority more than others are more likely to have crashes than those who don't.

    Highly suggest the book but the chapter at the very least very informative.
    +1 on this - just read that (on a flight last week of all places)!
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:00 PM   #2740
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Canada and the U.S. are grounding all 737 Max 8s and Max 9s now.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:24 PM   #2741
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Will they be diverted to the nearest airport or finish out their routes.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:26 PM   #2742
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rodey View Post
    If this is the same issue as the Lion Air crash, isn't this more of an educational/pilot error thing? Didn't Boeing document the changes to the systems/procedures after that incident and tell everyone to be aware of them?
    Google "Boeing 737 Max MCAS" (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System).

    Basically, it's logic Boeing built into the MAX that commands the nose stabilizer down to avoid a full stall of the aircraft. Lot of information to take in on that, but I can't dive into too much detail.

    What comes next will be interesting. Boeing's response will be huge.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:49 PM   #2743
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    I used to be so interested in commercial aviation... even had a profile on airliners.net. I'll have to get back into it, this stuff is pretty fascinating to say the least.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:52 PM   #2744
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DIDriveOut2SPAC View Post
    Will they be diverted to the nearest airport or finish out their routes.
    From the way I understood it they'll finish their routes and be grounded after that.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:54 PM   #2745
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DIDriveOut2SPAC View Post
    Will they be diverted to the nearest airport or finish out their routes.
    No diversions necessary.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:59 PM   #2746
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by K270 View Post
    From the way I understood it they'll finish their routes and be grounded after that.
    one way or another, I suppose
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    Old 03-13-2019, 12:59 PM   #2747
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lockman21 View Post
    Google "Boeing 737 Max MCAS" (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System).



    Basically, it's logic Boeing built into the MAX that commands the nose stabilizer down to avoid a full stall of the aircraft. Lot of information to take in on that, but I can't dive into too much detail.



    What comes next will be interesting. Boeing's response will be huge.
    Right, but I thought Boeing issued procedures around that. From what I've read, disabling the electronic trim and switching to manual trim resolves it.

    There was an article about some US pilots complaining about the issue, but none crashed. I'm guessing it's because they were educated on the issue after Lion Air?

    I have no issues with the grounding, but it also seems like there is a workaround (disabling the electronic trim) until a software fix comes, so I don't know if it was absolutely necessary.

    Then again, I'm not an expert.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 01:43 PM   #2748
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rodey View Post
    Right, but I thought Boeing issued procedures around that. From what I've read, disabling the electronic trim and switching to manual trim resolves it.

    There was an article about some US pilots complaining about the issue, but none crashed. I'm guessing it's because they were educated on the issue after Lion Air?

    I have no issues with the grounding, but it also seems like there is a workaround (disabling the electronic trim) until a software fix comes, so I don't know if it was absolutely necessary.

    Then again, I'm not an expert.
    What I can tell you is that yes, some pilots here in the States have been trained that if they find themselves in a similar scenario, to click off all the automation and hand fly. If they have a stab trim runway, they would use the cutout switches.

    It's not as simple as the workaround you mentioned. I'm not sure what the answer is, it's way above my pay grade, but some airlines are being majorly impacted by this (mostly Southwest and American). It's a LOT of flights to cancel over the coming days, weeks, months, etc. depending on how long this drags out. Was it the right move? Up for debate. I'll leave my opinion on that out of here, but no doubt this is majorly impactful.

    Southwest is going to have a really, really tough time if this drags out. They're already struggling with a labor dispute.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 01:49 PM   #2749
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lockman21 View Post

    Southwest is going to have a really, really tough time if this drags out. They're already struggling with a labor dispute.


    How many 737 Max does Southwest fly? Do all the airplanes they grounded a few weeks ago for maintenance issues have anything to do with the grounding of all the 737 Maxs today?
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    Old 03-13-2019, 02:08 PM   #2750
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lockman21 View Post
    What I can tell you is that yes, some pilots here in the States have been trained that if they find themselves in a similar scenario, to click off all the automation and hand fly. If they have a stab trim runway, they would use the cutout switches.

    It's not as simple as the workaround you mentioned. I'm not sure what the answer is, it's way above my pay grade, but some airlines are being majorly impacted by this (mostly Southwest and American). It's a LOT of flights to cancel over the coming days, weeks, months, etc. depending on how long this drags out. Was it the right move? Up for debate. I'll leave my opinion on that out of here, but no doubt this is majorly impactful.

    Southwest is going to have a really, really tough time if this drags out. They're already struggling with a labor dispute.
    I'm sure it's not as simple as I'm stating. But the fact that two planes went down because pilots seemingly didn't know how to react is just as concerning as the issue itself, in my opinion.

    Perhaps just an extension of my opinion that pilots rely too much on systems these days.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 02:11 PM   #2751
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by K270 View Post
    How many 737 Max does Southwest fly? Do all the airplanes they grounded a few weeks ago for maintenance issues have anything to do with the grounding of all the 737 Maxs today?
    Currently 34 MAX aircraft, with (I believe) another 37 scheduled to be delivered by the end of the year. Depending on how long this drags out, and what the remedy is, there could be ripple effects and downline impact on deliveries/production schedules/etc too.

    And no. The maintenance issues were a separate issue.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 02:21 PM   #2752
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rodey View Post
    I'm sure it's not as simple as I'm stating. But the fact that two planes went down because pilots seemingly didn't know how to react is just as concerning as the issue itself, in my opinion.

    Perhaps just an extension of my opinion that pilots rely too much on systems these days.
    It’s an interesting question, and one worth asking, but I would push back on your opinion.

    Airline safety records are markably better than they were 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, 50 years ago, etc. Is that a result of aircraft automation enhancements, pilot training, or maintenance enhancements (reporting, tooling, troubleshooting, etc)? I’d argue all of the above (but not limited to just those 3). Simply stating pilots are too reliant on systems is a very generic statement that ignores all the systems in place that do amazing things.

    What I would hope is that the FAA and manufacturers use this as a learning opportunity.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 02:35 PM   #2753
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lockman21 View Post
    It’s an interesting question, and one worth asking, but I would push back on your opinion.



    Airline safety records are markably better than they were 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, 50 years ago, etc. Is that a result of aircraft automation enhancements, pilot training, or maintenance enhancements (reporting, tooling, troubleshooting, etc)? I’d argue all of the above (but not limited to just those 3). Simply stating pilots are too reliant on systems is a very generic statement that ignores all the systems in place that do amazing things.



    What I would hope is that the FAA and manufacturers use this as a learning opportunity.
    I'm not disagreeing that systems have made flying safer. And autopiloted cars will make driving safer. I'm simply stating that, at the same time, we have become too reliant on technology in many aspects. It's easy to fall into a sense of security and lower your guard.

    I'm not saying that's what happened here, but with so many aspects of commercial flying being automated, I do think it's something worth bringing up.
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    Old 03-13-2019, 02:49 PM   #2754
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rodey View Post
    I'm not disagreeing that systems have made flying safer. And autopiloted cars will make driving safer. I'm simply stating that, at the same time, we have become too reliant on technology in many aspects. It's easy to fall into a sense of security and lower your guard.

    I'm not saying that's what happened here, but with so many aspects of commercial flying being automated, I do think it's something worth bringing up.
    Absolutely. We just need to make sure we’re properly implementing those systems through training and awareness.
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    Old 03-17-2019, 09:49 PM   #2755
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Good read.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ion-air-crash/
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    Old 03-18-2019, 01:10 PM   #2756
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Route_2 View Post
    Yes, it was.

    Are they reading Ants?! Quote from the article:

    "Boeing insists that the pilots on the Lion Air flight should have recognized that the horizontal stabilizer was moving uncommanded, and should have responded with a standard pilot checklist procedure to handle what’s called “stabilizer runaway.”

    If they’d done so, the pilots would have hit cutoff switches and deactivated the automatic stabilizer movement."

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lockman21 View Post
    What I can tell you is that yes, some pilots here in the States have been trained that if they find themselves in a similar scenario, to click off all the automation and hand fly. If they have a stab trim runway, they would use the cutout switches.

    It's not as simple as the workaround you mentioned. I'm not sure what the answer is, it's way above my pay grade, but some airlines are being majorly impacted by this (mostly Southwest and American). It's a LOT of flights to cancel over the coming days, weeks, months, etc. depending on how long this drags out. Was it the right move? Up for debate. I'll leave my opinion on that out of here, but no doubt this is majorly impactful.

    Southwest is going to have a really, really tough time if this drags out. They're already struggling with a labor dispute.
    Hmmmm...
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    Old 03-25-2019, 01:12 PM   #2757
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    How the hell does this happen in 2019?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47691478

    Sorry guys... we landed in the wrong country.
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    Old 03-25-2019, 08:14 PM   #2758
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by drop2d View Post
    How the hell does this happen in 2019?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47691478

    Sorry guys... we landed in the wrong country.
    It happens more often than you think. My favorite is the C5 that landed at the wrong airport with a runway far too short for takeoff.
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    Old 03-26-2019, 05:42 AM   #2759
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by daveshookme View Post
    It happens more often than you think. My favorite is the C5 that landed at the wrong airport with a runway far too short for takeoff.
    Wrong airport in the general vicinity of where you were headed... I can see that. Still should never happen but I get it.

    Wrong direction/wrong country... there must have been a failure at every level for that to happen.
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    Old 03-26-2019, 01:55 PM   #2760
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    Re: Missing Malaysian Flight/Every other plane that goes down

    So Southwest was originally doubling down on blowing Boeing, saying how they completely stood behind their 737 Max before the US grounded all of them.

    One just made an emergency landing after engine problems shortly after takeoff.

    1000x over: Fuck Boeing and their coverup corrupt bullshit.
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