Everyday - DMB's failed "departure album"

[coldblueice]

this discussion is based on the following commentary from ?uestlove:

a 4 minute listen from 58:37 - 1:02:10

(cue'd up) https://youtu.be/yCxVzCe2N1Y?t=58m37s


lots of bands reach a creative zenith in the course of their careers and then choose to make a "departure album". i.e. forgetting what's gotten them to the top and going in an opposite direction. sometimes this results in surprising triumphs that propel an artist/band thru the second half of their journey. other times it fails and leaves the artist/band scrambling and flailing to find themselves again.

to me, Everyday was DMB's failed "departure album". meant to reenergize and refresh a band after 10 years of grinding, it instead reinforced doubts, exposed weaknesses, and ended their creative momentum. this momentum was never fully regained despite best intentions and efforts. we constantly got promo videos - before Stand Up, before Big Whiskey, before AFTW - and in every promo the band members would say the same things... "THIS record feels like REAL DMB" or "this gets us back to our roots" or "this is how it felt when we first started".

the truth is - if you have to come out and say "this is how it used to be"... then it most definitely isn't how it used to be.


i just found ?uestlove's words here very interesting, and I thought of the examples he gave of departure albums and tried to think of others. Radiohead's Kid A is a prime example of a successful departure album. no way Radiohead could have made it another 15 years sticking to the rock-anthem style of their first three albums. and the radical shift to the minimalist/electronica style, while alienating many original fans, spurred their enduring second act, lifting them to much greater heights commercially and artistically.

[dmb_25_coog]

the follow up to everyday was amazing. both versions.

[hailtopitt]

Originally Posted by dmb_25_coog

the follow up to everyday was amazing. both versions.

the good version you are talking about happened in 2000, before Everyday

[BotheLaneFan]

Originally Posted by coldblueice

this discussion is based on the following commentary from ?uestlove:

a 4 minute listen from 58:37 - 1:02:10

(cue'd up) https://youtu.be/yCxVzCe2N1Y?t=58m37s


lots of bands reach a creative zenith in the course of their careers and then choose to make a "departure album". i.e. forgetting what's gotten them to the top and going in an opposite direction. sometimes this results in surprising triumphs that propel an artist/band thru the second half of their journey. other times it fails and leaves the artist/band scrambling and flailing to find themselves again.

to me, Everyday was DMB's failed "departure album". meant to reenergize and refresh a band after 10 years of grinding, it instead reinforced doubts, exposed weaknesses, and ended their creative momentum. this momentum was never fully regained despite best intentions and efforts. we constantly got promo videos - before Stand Up, before Big Whiskey, before AFTW - and in every promo the band members would say the same things... "THIS record feels like REAL DMB" or "this gets us back to our roots" or "this is how it felt when we first started".

the truth is - if you have to come out and say "this is how it used to be"... then it most definitely isn't how it used to be.


i just found ?uestlove's words here very interesting, and I thought of the examples he gave of departure albums and tried to think of others. Radiohead's Kid A is a prime example of a successful departure album. no way Radiohead could have made it another 15 years sticking to the rock-anthem style of their first three albums. and the radical shift to the minimalist/electronica style, while alienating many original fans, spurred their enduring second act, lifting them to much greater heights commercially and artistically.

The most successful departure album is U2's Achtung Baby. Radiohead's entire career has been trying to copy U2's arc, just with less financial success.

[coldengrey12]

Originally Posted by BotheU2Fan

The most successful departure album is U2's Achtung Baby. Radiohead's entire career has been trying to copy U2's arc, just with less financial success.

Achtung Baby itself is great, but the course it set the group on wasn't spectacular.

Within a decade, they were doing the "back to basics" album w/ATYCLB.

[jimmything014]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but where we diverge is on your point of creative momentum. I think they had it back in 2004 when they put together that great collection of new music, but threw that momentum away when they decided to scrap those songs in favor of stand up. The same might be able to said with the 2006 batch of songs. To me they grabbed the creative momentum at times but let it slip away.

[BotheLaneFan]

Originally Posted by coldengrey12

Achtung Baby itself is great, but the course it set the group on wasn't spectacular.

Within a decade, they were doing the "back to basics" album w/ATYCLB.

Which was still massively different than the early stuff. They married the two things together.

[DeuceStep]

It has been said that it's Dave who makes the decision to scrap music and maybe he does most of the time. However, from what we know, DMB (Dave) seems to be very impressionable when it comes to producers exerting opinions or control over their music. I imagine if someone is in Dave's ear telling him to go this way or that way he is insecure and impressionable enough to listen, maybe overly so.

[coldblueice]

Originally Posted by BotheU2Fan

The most successful departure album is U2's Achtung Baby. Radiohead's entire career has been trying to copy U2's arc, just with less financial success.

interesting theory

[DeuceStep]

Originally Posted by BotheU2Fan

The most successful departure album is U2's Achtung Baby. Radiohead's entire career has been trying to copy U2's arc, just with less financial success.

Radiohead could have been much more financially successful if they weren't so phobic about recording or divisive about their own music and touring. They certainly have no problem selling tickets and could probably play huge tours regularly as U2 does.

U2 has dealt with touring well, emotionally and as a band. Maybe because Bono and others have made a point to find other outlets for their creativity and voice, so as to let their music and drive breathe.

[jmkratt]

Originally Posted by jimmything014

I agree with most of what you are saying, but where we diverge is on your point of creative momentum. I think they had it back in 2004 when they put together that great collection of new music, but threw that momentum away when they decided to scrap those songs in favor of stand up. The same might be able to said with the 2006 batch of songs. To me they grabbed the creative momentum at times but let it slip away.

I agree.

[coldengrey12]

Originally Posted by DeuceStep

Radiohead could have been much more financially successful if they weren't so phobic about recording or divisive about their own music and touring. They certainly have no problem selling tickets and could probably play huge tours regularly as U2 does.

U2 has dealt with touring well, emotionally and as a band. Maybe because Bono and others have made a point to find other outlets for their creativity and voice, so as to let their music and drive breathe.

They have different goals.

U2 wants to be the biggest band in the world.

Radiohead is more interested in being a popular vanity project.

[DeuceStep]

Originally Posted by coldengrey12

They have different goals.

U2 wants to be the biggest band in the world.

Radiohead is more interested in being a popular vanity project.

That makes sense. The former is definitely more emotionally stable as a whole.

The latter runs from their success, possibly giving them that elusive quality, whether it's deserved or not.

[BotheLaneFan]

Coincidentally, Radiohead hasn't made a good album in a decade.

[coldengrey12]

^ I love Moon Shaped Pool, but King of Limbs was pretty meh.

I'm also derailing the conversation.

[coldblueice]

Originally Posted by BotheU2Fan

Coincidentally, Radiohead hasn't made a good album in a decade.

bullshit. king of limbs and moon shaped pool are both excellent.

this isn't a radiohead vs. U2 debate. and your favorite band, BO THE U2 FAN, has been noted. can you move on now?

[Jake]

Originally Posted by coldblueice

this discussion is based on the following commentary from ?uestlove:

a 4 minute listen from 58:37 - 1:02:10

(cue'd up) https://youtu.be/yCxVzCe2N1Y?t=58m37s


lots of bands reach a creative zenith in the course of their careers and then choose to make a "departure album". i.e. forgetting what's gotten them to the top and going in an opposite direction. sometimes this results in surprising triumphs that propel an artist/band thru the second half of their journey. other times it fails and leaves the artist/band scrambling and flailing to find themselves again.

to me, Everyday was DMB's failed "departure album". meant to reenergize and refresh a band after 10 years of grinding, it instead reinforced doubts, exposed weaknesses, and ended their creative momentum. this momentum was never fully regained despite best intentions and efforts. we constantly got promo videos - before Stand Up, before Big Whiskey, before AFTW - and in every promo the band members would say the same things... "THIS record feels like REAL DMB" or "this gets us back to our roots" or "this is how it felt when we first started".

the truth is - if you have to come out and say "this is how it used to be"... then it most definitely isn't how it used to be.


i just found ?uestlove's words here very interesting, and I thought of the examples he gave of departure albums and tried to think of others. Radiohead's Kid A is a prime example of a successful departure album. no way Radiohead could have made it another 15 years sticking to the rock-anthem style of their first three albums. and the radical shift to the minimalist/electronica style, while alienating many original fans, spurred their enduring second act, lifting them to much greater heights commercially and artistically.

That was pretty good; ?uestlove really made some excellent points.


I don't know if I agree on the surface there because DMB didn't make Everyday; Dave did. And the departure is because of the dark place where Dave was. I'm sure you can draw similar parallels to other departure albums but I don't think it was "DMB can't handle the pressure", which is ?uestlove's Point; I think it's more of everything crashing down on Dave and settling for a person who told him 'YES THAT IS GREAT!" when he just picked up a guitar and strummed it.

[comeandsee41]

^agreed. the change in direction for the band with everyday was not based on "lets try something new, our sound is stale" approach, but rather helping one person -dave- fight off the depression. granted that was the begining of the end for this band, but still not a true departure album. i think that case can be made for Stand Up more than Everyday

[WillReconcile]

Originally Posted by dmb_25_coog

the follow up to everyday was amazing. both versions.

The follow-up to Everyday was Stand-up, there was only one version, and it sucked.

Back to the OP's original question, I was actually just thinking about this earlier today, because WTWE album version came up on my songs. And I was thinking "I wonder how Glen Ballard convinced them that this was a good sound, and I wonder what Coren Capshaw thought about it?"

To the first question, I would just assume the band, as human nature would allow given their level of success, thought they were unstoppable. Why not try this sound and see how it goes? From everything you read, the time in the studio was extremely quick, so I bet they didn't even have as much time to think about it. Glen knew about the old album(LWS), heard their feedback about how dark it was, and probably said "Then let's do the exact opposite! Let's shake up your sound, and reinvent this band!" And the band was probably like "that sounds awesome! we're great musicians, right? we can do this!" Of course, that's probably not exactly how it went, but that's my best guess.

To the second question about Coren, of course I have no idea as well, but my guess is "that's fine. we can capitalize on all the stadium tours we just did, and even if this album is hot garbage, it has an almost 0% chance of not making a lot of money."

The one thing he probably didn't anticipate at the time, though, was that it was be the first in a string of mediocre albums. So yeah, I guess you could say this "departure" album was a failure, because "the old DMB" never came back.

[comeandsee41]

Originally Posted by WillReconcile

The follow-up to Everyday was Stand-up, there was only one version, and it sucked.

Back to the OP's original question, I was actually just thinking about this earlier today, because WTWE album version came up on my songs. And I was thinking "I wonder how Glen Ballard convinced them that this was a good sound, and I wonder what Coren Capshaw thought about it?"

To the first question, I would just assume the band, as human nature would allow given their level of success, thought they were unstoppable. Why not try this sound and see how it goes? From everything you read, the time in the studio was extremely quick, so I bet they didn't even have as much time to think about it. Glen knew about the old album(LWS), heard their feedback about how dark it was, and probably said "Then let's do the exact opposite! Let's shake up your sound, and reinvent this band!" And the band was probably like "that sounds awesome! we're great musicians, right? we can do this!" Of course, that's probably not exactly how it went, but that's my best guess.

To the second question about Coren, of course I have no idea as well, but my guess is "that's fine. we can capitalize on all the stadium tours we just did, and even if this album is hot garbage, it has an almost 0% chance of not making a lot of money."

The one thing he probably didn't anticipate at the time, though, was that it was be the first in a string of mediocre albums. So yeah, I guess you could say this "departure" album was a failure, because "the old DMB" never came back.

it was Busted Stuff

[RMinor205]

Originally Posted by comeandsee41

it was Busted Stuff

You forgot to mention that Busted Stuff does not suck.

[BotheLaneFan]

Originally Posted by coldblueice

bullshit. king of limbs and moon shaped pool are both excellent.

this isn't a radiohead vs. U2 debate. and your favorite band, BO THE U2 FAN, has been noted. can you move on now?

We haven't talked about the DeFranco Family once, so don't start throwing shit around Good Brother. And King of Limbs is butt city. Pool was boring and butt.

[coldblueice]

Originally Posted by BotheU2Fan

We haven't talked about the DeFranco Family once, so don't start throwing shit around Good Brother. And King of Limbs is butt city. Pool was boring and butt.

wow.....

[WillReconcile]

Originally Posted by comeandsee41

it was Busted Stuff

I mean.. I didn't think I had to explain it, but for all intents and purposes, Stand Up was the follow-up. Aside from WAYG and YNK, it was all written before Everyday. No sht Busted Stuff came after Everyday, but following the creativity timeline of the band, Stand up was the follow-up to Everyday.

[dobyblue]

If you don't like The King of Limbs, try the "Live from The Basement" Blu-ray...the live performance is amazing!

[BigEyedIdiot]

Originally Posted by DeuceStep

It has been said that it's Dave who makes the decision to scrap music and maybe he does most of the time. However, from what we know, DMB (Dave) seems to be very impressionable when it comes to producers exerting opinions or control over their music. I imagine if someone is in Dave's ear telling him to go this way or that way he is insecure and impressionable enough to listen, maybe overly so.

AFTW being a flop was 100% on Dave, not Steve. You can't polish a turd.

[DMB1983]

Honestly, in hindsight Everyday is a good album. Albeit not a DMB album so therefore a "departure" like you say, but most definitely a good one. The songs to me have stood the test of time. The fact the band still plays Everyday, When the World Ends, Fool to Think, If I Had it All, Space Between, What You Are, and So Right ( Not all the time, but they get busted out for streaks here and there), shows the band still still think's it's relevant material.

Listening to it now, it still blows away most of the music being produced presently. I'd take it over the crap I see on Spotify top 50 lists.

[Roi Lives]

I've spent some time thinking about this, it's a very interesting idea. Of course it's peppered with each individual's emotional reacton at the time.

For me, hearing LeRoi Moore (and the band) was eye-opening. A drab world was suddenly technicolor. My first official DMB concert was the 2000 RFK show, where it rained like hell and the band opened with JTR and Dave altered the lyrics to Grey Street. It was, and I say this without hyperbole, a religious experience for me.

You also have to take into account the historical context. BTCS was a monumental artistic achievement. It was a somewhow an unintentional concept album; what the concept was is open for interpretation but I think we can all agree that once you spun it all the way through it felt like a journey. There was a real fear that the band would fall on its face after that album. How could they possibly top it!

Then the 2000 tour started. I remember the painstaking process of downloading these new songs that were premiering, huddled around the computer as tinny versions of Bartender, Grey Street, JTR, Sweet Up and Down, and others played through Winamp. I remember my best friend and I just wide-eyed staring at each other. It was improbable - they actually topped it. If BTCS was an epic album, these new songs were singular epics in and of themselves. You couldn't believe the endorphin high of hearing these songs in the raw.

Then as we all know, the hard right turn into Everyday. I remember the premiere of I Did It on DC101, I taped it. I called my friend. We were so disappointed. They had topped their epic, abandoned those new epics, and I guess we all expected a revelation.

I maintain that if the LWS had come out, THEN Everyday - who knows. We might be talking about them in the same breath as U2 or The Rolling Stones. Improbable but not out of the realm of possibility. Consider that DMB detractors loved to point out how "jammy" they were, as if long solos and never-ending song variations belied a lack of real talent and ability. Everyday turned them into the most soulful studio band you are likely to hear. If they had put out LWS, then said "Hey we're going to try something new, something clean with our own spin on it" we would have flipped for Everday. Listen to how goddamn slick it is! For all the criticisms of the band living in their own ecosystem, this showed that LeRoi, Boyd, Stefan, and Carter could hang with any studio musicians. It showed that even when Dave writes pop music he writes it better than most.

Unfortunately the crazy stimulant that were the LWS songs could not keep us that high when Everyday was substituted. If LWS comes first, then Everyday, we're having a whole other conversation and I guarantee Everday is looked upon as a marvel, a revelation in the band's evolution.

[lockman21]

Originally Posted by BotheU2Fan

The most successful departure album is U2's Achtung Baby. Radiohead's entire career has been trying to copy U2's arc, just with less financial success.

Good lord, you've got to stop blowing U2's dick all over this board.

[lockman21]

Originally Posted by Roi Lives

I've spent some time thinking about this, it's a very interesting idea. Of course it's peppered with each individual's emotional reacton at the time.

For me, hearing LeRoi Moore (and the band) was eye-opening. A drab world was suddenly technicolor. My first official DMB concert was the 2000 RFK show, where it rained like hell and the band opened with JTR and Dave altered the lyrics to Grey Street. It was, and I say this without hyperbole, a religious experience for me.

You also have to take into account the historical context. BTCS was a monumental artistic achievement. It was a somewhow an unintentional concept album; what the concept was is open for interpretation but I think we can all agree that once you spun it all the way through it felt like a journey. There was a real fear that the band would fall on its face after that album. How could they possibly top it!

Then the 2000 tour started. I remember the painstaking process of downloading these new songs that were premiering, huddled around the computer as tinny versions of Bartender, Grey Street, JTR, Sweet Up and Down, and others played through Winamp. I remember my best friend and I just wide-eyed staring at each other. It was improbable - they actually topped it. If BTCS was an epic album, these new songs were singular epics in and of themselves. You couldn't believe the endorphin high of hearing these songs in the raw.

Then as we all know, the hard right turn into Everyday. I remember the premiere of I Did It on DC101, I taped it. I called my friend. We were so disappointed. They had topped their epic, abandoned those new epics, and I guess we all expected a revelation.

I maintain that if the LWS had come out, THEN Everyday - who knows. We might be talking about them in the same breath as U2 or The Rolling Stones. Improbable but not out of the realm of possibility. Consider that DMB detractors loved to point out how "jammy" they were, as if long solos and never-ending song variations belied a lack of real talent and ability. Everyday turned them into the most soulful studio band you are likely to hear. If they had put out LWS, then said "Hey we're going to try something new, something clean with our own spin on it" we would have flipped for Everday. Listen to how goddamn slick it is! For all the criticisms of the band living in their own ecosystem, this showed that LeRoi, Boyd, Stefan, and Carter could hang with any studio musicians. It showed that even when Dave writes pop music he writes it better than most.

Unfortunately the crazy stimulant that were the LWS songs could not keep us that high when Everyday was substituted. If LWS comes first, then Everyday, we're having a whole other conversation and I guarantee Everday is looked upon as a marvel, a revelation in the band's evolution.

I think you're wayyyyyy overselling Everyday, here.