Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite??? - Antsmarching.org Forums - Dave Matthews Band Discussion
Old 01-12-2012, 02:42 PM   #1
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Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

So I want to be on board with the potential for greatness, the spark of Lillywhite coming from the heavens and delivering an album that will later be known as one of the big 4, and the big ol' hype train that has clearly left the station...

Believe me, if an album is in the works, I hope it's the best album in the history of mankind and that I can one distant day bore the shit out of my Grandkids telling them about how I was on the hype train before anyone knew the destination. I mean it; hope the shit is amazing and all that.

Only time will tell...

My question is simple: Are we saying that BW would have been an entirely different album if Lillywhite had of produced it vs. Cavallo?

Is that the message here, folks? Those of you who hated You & Me or Spaceman would have loved these songs through the prism of Steve Lillywhite instead? I would not have to fast forward through Dive In (this is one sleepy head who doesn't want to wake up) because Steve would have... what exactly? Cut it? Produced it in such a manner I would cherish it and make a poster to try to get them to play it at every show? Enlighten me as to how the fundamental songs would have been different...

I enjoyed BW, I think it's a good/very good album. I absolutely love Seven (I'm releasing the Krakens on that one, I'm sure). There are moments of genius and moments of crap on BW, but it was DMB in a new direction and as far as I'm concerned when it comes to DMB, the more the merrier. Someone said it on on one of the other threads best; Dave could fart in a mic for an hour and we'd gobble it up. Fucken-A-Right we would (be seeing posts like, "listen to the sustained vibrato Dave gets starting on minute 45..." we'd eat it up all day long).

The point is, do you really think that it would have been an entirely different set of songs or some far reaching departure from what BW is, if Lillywhite was in on it? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to diminish the guy's talent and I'm fully stoked to hear it's all happening. But, this band has evolved, just as we all have (shit there's whippersnappers on here who were in diapers in '93). Past performance is no guarantee of future results. I'll take Steve, but how much effect will he have on the central music? Core shit must be written, Steve or no Steve. I keep seeing that Lillywhite = amazing things, so please explain to me how BW morphs into epic if Dave and co. took the material to him vice Cavallo?

As a final aside; I would fully agree that BTCS could easily have been a much lesser album in someone else's hands (and maybe that's the ingredient that SL brings), but some of those songs had a depth to them that wasn't as present on BW and that falls squarely on Dave, not the production value.

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  • Old 01-12-2012, 03:08 PM   #2
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    I don't think Lillywhite would've made a major difference. I guess it'd be cool to hear his take on LITHOG, Alligator Pie, Seven, and Baby Blue. But songs like Dive In and Spaceman are just flat out bad songs.

    However, making Boyd more prominent, plus Lillywhite, and hopefully less Tim...all of that should automatically make a new album better than BW and SU.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 03:14 PM   #3
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    I imagine the songs would be very different. I recall Dave writing like 90 'short songs' and eventually piecing some together as chorus, bridge, etc. I'm sure lillywhite would have found different ways to do this and the songs would have ended up with total different arrangements.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 04:18 PM   #4
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    It could have gone a little different. Different arrangements. Song A being left on the scrap heap while Song W is fully developed...

    When I listen to Dave's writing sing tLWS (especially Some Devil) I wonder if Dave is ever halfway through writing a song and says to himself, "Eh, this sounds a little too Lillywhitish. He's not here, let's try something different." I wonder if that's why songs like Shotgun and Sugar Will are unstudioized.

    That early clip, the That Pace clip had a some Lillywhite magic to it and in the end it became Time Bomb. Really makes you wonder what direction Lillywhite himself might have pushed it.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 04:39 PM   #5
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Julia Roberts View Post
    When I listen to Dave's writing sing tLWS (especially Some Devil) I wonder if Dave is ever halfway through writing a song and says to himself, "Eh, this sounds a little too Lillywhitish. He's not here, let's try something different." I wonder if that's why songs like Shotgun and Sugar Will are unstudioized.

    That early clip, the That Pace clip had a some Lillywhite magic to it and in the end it became Time Bomb. Really makes you wonder what direction Lillywhite himself might have pushed it.

    I highly doubt this.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 05:19 PM   #6
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Julia Roberts View Post
    It could have gone a little different. Different arrangements. Song A being left on the scrap heap while Song W is fully developed...

    When I listen to Dave's writing sing tLWS (especially Some Devil) I wonder if Dave is ever halfway through writing a song and says to himself, "Eh, this sounds a little too Lillywhitish. He's not here, let's try something different." I wonder if that's why songs like Shotgun and Sugar Will are unstudioized.

    That early clip, the That Pace clip had a some Lillywhite magic to it and in the end it became Time Bomb. Really makes you wonder what direction Lillywhite himself might have pushed it.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 05:22 PM   #7
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    It wouldn't be all that different. Big Whiskey wasn't bad because Cavallo was bad, it was bad because the stuff the band brought to the record and their new philosophy (less Boyd, more Tim) on songs was bad. I'm sure Lillywhite could have made it a little better here and there, but nothing to overcome the fact that a majority of the songs on the record were subpar.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 06:10 PM   #8
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    I think it would be completely different. Cavallo had approach completely different from LW othe studio, even during the songwriting process (remember the hundreds of jams turned into pieces of songs?). I guess if LW was producing, the songwriting would be different and none of the songs that made the album would even exist.

    I think you are considering only the production of the album (as in the sound, layers, etc) as part of the job of a producer. But there's more to it, including the mood of the sessions, the direction they are gonna take, and that changes the whole game.

    So it's not like "how would Dive In sound if it was LW producing" and more like "would Dive In even be composed under LW's production?"
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    Old 01-12-2012, 06:25 PM   #9
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    I think it would have been much superior to the BW the band produced. I think he would have pushed them to re-write and re-write where songs weren't perfect, and brought out more creativity where Cavallo was happy to sit back and let the band come up with the songs. Obviously I don't know what went on in the studio sessions, I wasn't there so I don't know the degree of both producers' involvement, but that is what I have picked up.

    Carter on BW plays quite a few pretty samey beats: the main beat often incorporates semiquaver tom-work around the beat
    Carter starts Dive In and Alligator Pie pretty much the same
    There's little light vs shade; the album seems to be about binary in terms of volume. Few grace notes
    Song structure which I think has been talked about quite a bit is relatively ordinary and orthodox: V1 Ch V2 Br Ch Ch
    Carter plays pretty much always closed hats in verses, and either open hats or the ride in choruses.

    I think that in some of these Lillywhite would have said, "work on it then come back"
    Obviously this is my speculation and you can all rip into me, but that's what I reckon!!
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    Old 01-12-2012, 06:27 PM   #10
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vklugf View Post
    I think it would be completely different. Cavallo had approach completely different from LW othe studio, even during the songwriting process (remember the hundreds of jams turned into pieces of songs?). I guess if LW was producing, the songwriting would be different and none of the songs that made the album would even exist.

    I think you are considering only the production of the album (as in the sound, layers, etc) as part of the job of a producer. But there's more to it, including the mood of the sessions, the direction they are gonna take, and that changes the whole game.

    So it's not like "how would Dive In sound if it was LW producing" and more like "would Dive In even be composed under LW's production?"

    I think I agree with most of this, except the suggestion that none of the songs would have been included. I think some of them definitely not, but I think Lillywhite would have seen the beauty in Baby Blue for example.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 07:59 PM   #11
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    BW would've been better with lillywhite i think. it wouldnt of been worse.
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    Old 01-12-2012, 08:40 PM   #12
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by #41Tom View Post
    I think I agree with most of this, except the suggestion that none of the songs would have been included. I think some of them definitely not, but I think Lillywhite would have seen the beauty in Baby Blue for example.
    My point was that even songs like Baby Blue (that I truly love) where composed during the sessions, therefore you never know if they would be created in a different environment. Kind of a butterfly effect, you know? Change one thing (producer) and the whole outcome come be totally different.

    But I agree with you that maybe one or another songs would probably exist anyways... But we will never know for sure.
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    Old 01-20-2012, 06:28 AM   #13
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Wait...is the "conventional wisdom" around here shifting to the notion that Big Whiskey is a bad album??

    While I agree it is not in the same league as the Big 3, I think it is a good album and I recall that being the feeling on these boards when it came out. Yeah, some songs could have been better and they all have been overplayed live since the album came out, but I don't think it is anywhere near a "bad album"
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    Old 01-20-2012, 06:36 AM   #14
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Average album. On par with everyday, well below busted stuff
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    Old 01-20-2012, 09:01 AM   #15
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    In some parallel universe, in some crazy, crazy parallel universe, Steve Lillywhite produced BW and it is better than BTCS.
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    Old 01-20-2012, 09:23 AM   #16
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    This is an extremely hypothetical thread. Most ants threads are, but this one trumps all.
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    Old 01-20-2012, 10:58 AM   #17
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kittensXLI View Post
    I don't think Lillywhite would've made a major difference. I guess it'd be cool to hear his take on LITHOG, Alligator Pie, Seven, and Baby Blue. But songs like Dive In and Spaceman are just flat out bad songs.

    However, making Boyd more prominent, plus Lillywhite, and hopefully less Tim...all of that should automatically make a new album better than BW and SU.
    Wow, completely disagree. Listen to Live in AC.
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    Old 01-20-2012, 11:00 AM   #18
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    a bad song is a bad song regardless of how well it may be performed live
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    Old 01-20-2012, 11:53 AM   #19
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Perhaps Lillywhite would have encouraged the songs to breathe a bit more, utilize Boy'd/Jeff/Rashawn in a way that they're used live. Perhaps it would have been more organic, which would at least make it sound more like DMB.

    But for everyone who is saying that SL would have pushed them, what makes you all so convinced that he is going to push Dave's lyrics? He might be producing, but band has final say. How do we know Cavallo DIDN'T make lyrical suggestions or changes, and they were ignored?
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    Old 01-20-2012, 12:14 PM   #20
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Shining up a turd is cool, I guess. But it's still a turd.
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    Old 01-20-2012, 12:24 PM   #21
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kittensXLI View Post
    Shining up a turd is cool, I guess. But it's still a turd.


    i don't get it when people rave about BW. to me, the lyrics have been the worst, and it's been the least musically stimulating album they've done, bar LITHOG and Baby Blue.

    i like it that you can hear carter but i don't like what carter does. i wish they'd play 'clever' music again...!
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    Old 01-20-2012, 12:25 PM   #22
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    Re: Big Whiskey Through the Lens of Lillywhite???

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RainDog1980 View Post
    Perhaps Lillywhite would have encouraged the songs to breathe a bit more, utilize Boy'd/Jeff/Rashawn in a way that they're used live. Perhaps it would have been more organic, which would at least make it sound more like DMB.

    But for everyone who is saying that SL would have pushed them, what makes you all so convinced that he is going to push Dave's lyrics? He might be producing, but band has final say. How do we know Cavallo DIDN'T make lyrical suggestions or changes, and they were ignored?
    because tim licked my hand.
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