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Old 06-18-2018, 07:57 AM   #1
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Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

I was really impressed by the production at first glance (I mean... hear), but a few days ago I really gave it a proper listen on my closed headphones and it actually sounds to me way too blasted.
I'm not talking about the actual numbers, there are low DR albums that sound pretty good (within a specific genre).

My main gripe is Here On Out. In the background I can actually hear what can best be described as distortion (especially the middle of the song), and I pick this song because it'd be the easiest to get right because there's not much going on. Not saying it's loud to the point of clipping, but I definitely hear noise.

Anybody else give it a thorough listen? Is it just me?
(I haven't heard a vinyl rip yet though)
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  • Old 06-18-2018, 08:55 AM   #2
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Abysmal IMO. You can often barely hear Jeff, Rashawn, and Fonz.
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    Old 06-18-2018, 10:31 AM   #3
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    I absolutely agree. When the chorus comes in on Again and Again, his voice is definitely clipping in the mix when he sings "over and again and again".

    That's what I loved about albums like Busted Stuff / Before these Crowded Streets was that the mix had space, the instruments had room to breathe. This record oddly sounds very condensed and crowded.
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    Old 06-18-2018, 10:35 AM   #4
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Dave likes it hot
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    Old 06-18-2018, 01:52 PM   #5
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Noremac41 View Post
    I absolutely agree. When the chorus comes in on Again and Again, his voice is definitely clipping in the mix when he sings "over and again and again".

    That's what I loved about albums like Busted Stuff / Before these Crowded Streets was that the mix had space, the instruments had room to breathe. This record oddly sounds very condensed and crowded.
    Yea I noticed that clipping too. The mixing overall seems pretty half assed. And the live IOY intro...pulled from YouTube? Good god....
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    Old 06-18-2018, 02:36 PM   #6
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    COCO has audible distortion to me too. It is way too hot, in fact it's their most slammed studio album to date.
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    Old 06-18-2018, 02:40 PM   #7
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    I find BTCS sounds very hot, it's brickwalled massively and it's hard to listen to more than a song or two in a row loud.

    Would love to see a proper master. Listening to the DVD: The Videos of WWYS and DDTW, that's closer to what a flat master would sound like...you can really crank it and enjoy the full dynamics and if you desire apply a little eQ'ing yourself:

    DR Peak RMS Duration Track
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR14 -0.31 dB -15.56 dB 4:19 01-What Would You Say
    DR11 -0.64 dB -13.33 dB 4:36 02-Ants Marching
    DR8 -0.10 dB -9.88 dB 4:24 03-Satellite
    DR9 -0.27 dB -10.70 dB 3:59 04-Too Much
    DR10 -0.14 dB -12.04 dB 3:17 05-So Much to Say
    DR10 -0.43 dB -12.11 dB 4:16 06-Tripping Billies
    DR10 -0.51 dB -13.21 dB 4:22 07-Crash Into Me
    DR13 -0.83 dB -16.06 dB 4:41 08-Don’t Drink the Water
    DR9 -0.39 dB -12.21 dB 4:36 09-Stay (Wasting Time)
    DR10 -1.10 dB -12.25 dB 3:43 10-Crush
    DR11 -4.25 dB -17.59 dB 4:05 11-I Did It
    DR9 -0.06 dB -11.32 dB 4:05 12-The Space Between
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    Old 06-18-2018, 08:51 PM   #8
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Ah, here we go. This discussion again.

    I will say that, for headphone listening, AFTW beats BWGGK.

    But for CT my first listen was in the headphones, and I didn't hear the kind of compression that seemed to be all over BWGGK. It's actually a very easy listen, and I think that's why I'm loving it so much.

    And for my car speakers, it's perfect. Been listening to it constantly for a week and not tired out at all. Every day it seems like a new song grabs me and gets stuck in my head.
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    Old 06-20-2018, 12:00 AM   #9
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    It's really not very pretty and the better the system and the more critical the listening environment the worse it sounds...Come On Come On is the one for me that has the most audible artifacting from the compression and it's most noticeable right when the band kicks is. I like the production overall but the dynamic range compression is being hit pretty hard here, as Mark Batson recently acknowledged Dave likes.

    Here's a look at COCO in Adobe Audition compared to Sweet Up & Down tLWS. Window width of 50ms

    COCO:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.3 dB -.3 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -1.6 dB -1.6 dB
    Average RMS Power: -7.86 dB -7.77 dB
    Total RMS Power: -7.38 dB -7.3 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 24 Bits 24 Bits

    SUAD:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -1.4 dB -1.33 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -6.21 dB -5.95 dB
    Average RMS Power: -14.95 dB -15.18 dB
    Total RMS Power: -14.17 dB -14.35 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    For comparison, some other studio cuts around the 4-5 min mark:

    Ants Marching:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.01 dB -.01 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -2.35 dB -2.8 dB
    Average RMS Power: -10.24 dB -10.49 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.6 dB -9.85 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Ants Marching: (DVD: The Videos 1994~2001)
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.64 dB -1.18 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -5.92 dB -6.87 dB
    Average RMS Power: -13.58 dB -14.51 dB
    Total RMS Power: -12.89 dB -13.82 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Minarets:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.06 dB -.03 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -9.57 dB -9.24 dB
    Average RMS Power: -18.25 dB -18.59 dB
    Total RMS Power: -17.21 dB -17.59 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Tripping Billies:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 2308 3134
    Maximum RMS Power: -3.1 dB -2.61 dB
    Average RMS Power: -10.43 dB -10.42 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.84 dB -9.82 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Fool To Think:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.1 dB -.1 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -2.17 dB -1.78 dB
    Average RMS Power: -7.91 dB -8.39 dB
    Total RMS Power: -7.58 dB -8.05 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Grey St:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.01 dB -.01 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -4.08 dB -4.02 dB
    Average RMS Power: -9.08 dB -8.8 dB
    Total RMS Power: -8.74 dB -8.47 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Stand Up:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.16 dB -.17 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -4.36 dB -4.4 dB
    Average RMS Power: -9.78 dB -10.32 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.32 dB -9.8 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Save Me:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.63 dB -.63 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -1.81 dB -2.37 dB
    Average RMS Power: -8.78 dB -8.68 dB
    Total RMS Power: -8.21 dB -8.14 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Funny The Way It Is:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 349 2509
    Maximum RMS Power: -1.79 dB -1.53 dB
    Average RMS Power: -7.54 dB -7.3 dB
    Total RMS Power: -7.13 dB -6.85 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Broken Things:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.9 dB -.9 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -3.39 dB -3.04 dB
    Average RMS Power: -9.63 dB -9.03 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.18 dB -8.66 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 24 Bits 24 Bits

    BWGK and Come Tomorrow are the worst offenders for dynamic range compression. Can you guess which score is which without looking?

    Album DR 6 Minimum DR 5 Maximum DR 12
    Album DR 7 Minimum DR 5 Maximum DR 12

    BWGK has lots of clipping like Crash, which along with the heavy handed DRC probably puts it as the worst offender overall from a mastering standpoint.

    As always people should understand these numbers tell just one part of a very big story.
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    Old 06-20-2018, 07:12 AM   #10
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    It's really not very pretty and the better the system and the more critical the listening environment the worse it sounds...Come On Come On is the one for me that has the most audible artifacting from the compression and it's most noticeable right when the band kicks is. I like the production overall but the dynamic range compression is being hit pretty hard here, as Mark Batson recently acknowledged Dave likes.

    Here's a look at COCO in Adobe Audition compared to Sweet Up & Down tLWS. Window width of 50ms

    COCO:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.3 dB -.3 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -1.6 dB -1.6 dB
    Average RMS Power: -7.86 dB -7.77 dB
    Total RMS Power: -7.38 dB -7.3 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 24 Bits 24 Bits

    SUAD:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -1.4 dB -1.33 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -6.21 dB -5.95 dB
    Average RMS Power: -14.95 dB -15.18 dB
    Total RMS Power: -14.17 dB -14.35 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    For comparison, some other studio cuts around the 4-5 min mark:

    Ants Marching:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.01 dB -.01 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -2.35 dB -2.8 dB
    Average RMS Power: -10.24 dB -10.49 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.6 dB -9.85 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Ants Marching: (DVD: The Videos 1994~2001)
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.64 dB -1.18 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -5.92 dB -6.87 dB
    Average RMS Power: -13.58 dB -14.51 dB
    Total RMS Power: -12.89 dB -13.82 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Minarets:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.06 dB -.03 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -9.57 dB -9.24 dB
    Average RMS Power: -18.25 dB -18.59 dB
    Total RMS Power: -17.21 dB -17.59 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Tripping Billies:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 2308 3134
    Maximum RMS Power: -3.1 dB -2.61 dB
    Average RMS Power: -10.43 dB -10.42 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.84 dB -9.82 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Fool To Think:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.1 dB -.1 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -2.17 dB -1.78 dB
    Average RMS Power: -7.91 dB -8.39 dB
    Total RMS Power: -7.58 dB -8.05 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Grey St:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.01 dB -.01 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -4.08 dB -4.02 dB
    Average RMS Power: -9.08 dB -8.8 dB
    Total RMS Power: -8.74 dB -8.47 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Stand Up:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.16 dB -.17 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -4.36 dB -4.4 dB
    Average RMS Power: -9.78 dB -10.32 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.32 dB -9.8 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Save Me:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.63 dB -.63 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -1.81 dB -2.37 dB
    Average RMS Power: -8.78 dB -8.68 dB
    Total RMS Power: -8.21 dB -8.14 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Funny The Way It Is:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: 0 dB 0 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 349 2509
    Maximum RMS Power: -1.79 dB -1.53 dB
    Average RMS Power: -7.54 dB -7.3 dB
    Total RMS Power: -7.13 dB -6.85 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

    Broken Things:
    Left Right
    Peak Amplitude: -.9 dB -.9 dB
    Possibly Clipped: 0 0
    Maximum RMS Power: -3.39 dB -3.04 dB
    Average RMS Power: -9.63 dB -9.03 dB
    Total RMS Power: -9.18 dB -8.66 dB
    Actual Bit Depth: 24 Bits 24 Bits

    BWGK and Come Tomorrow are the worst offenders for dynamic range compression. Can you guess which score is which without looking?

    Album DR 6 Minimum DR 5 Maximum DR 12
    Album DR 7 Minimum DR 5 Maximum DR 12

    BWGK has lots of clipping like Crash, which along with the heavy handed DRC probably puts it as the worst offender overall from a mastering standpoint.

    As always people should understand these numbers tell just one part of a very big story.

    Love everything about this post, thanks for the effort!
    Also, when/how did Batson say that Dave wants it this way?
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    Old 06-20-2018, 07:29 AM   #11
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    COCO has audible distortion to me too. It is way too hot, in fact it's their most slammed studio album to date.
    hey Doby, why do they even bother doing albums this way? like why do they go in wanting to compress it so much, and just not do it the more natural breathable way? I'm surprised about this because Rob Evans was in on the mixing, and all his live mixing he does for the band is not overly compressed correct? this goes with our conversation we had before about that. it seems all the early LT are extra loud, and Evans mixed LT are more breathable; no hissing on Dave's S's, not as loud, you can turn it up past what you would normally have it on. surprises me CT was done this way. do they just say to themselves we want this to sound loud, and then overly compress it?
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    Old 06-21-2018, 09:09 AM   #12
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kingofkings View Post
    hey Doby, why do they even bother doing albums this way? like why do they go in wanting to compress it so much, and just not do it the more natural breathable way? I'm surprised about this because Rob Evans was in on the mixing, and all his live mixing he does for the band is not overly compressed correct? this goes with our conversation we had before about that. it seems all the early LT are extra loud, and Evans mixed LT are more breathable; no hissing on Dave's S's, not as loud, you can turn it up past what you would normally have it on. surprises me CT was done this way. do they just say to themselves we want this to sound loud, and then overly compress it?
    I believe it's one of the following:

    1) They (Dave / Flohr) think people like it this way despite no-one ever petitioning the music industry to do so
    2) They like it this way
    3) They think it will make their album stand out more on the radio (it does the opposite)

    It's not the exact same team when it comes to the LT releases and that team has been more receptive to feedback and has reached IMO an acceptable compromise (short of offering two masterings) between loud and dynamic; most LTs are usually scoring between DR8-10 on the TT meter whereas the last three studio albums have been 6 (CT) and 7 (BWGK/AFTW).

    As for Evans' involvement, without having access to the unmastered version of CT we can't say for certain how much of this is the mixing teams fault and how much is the mastering engineer's fault. In my experience, from the few examples we have from artists where a mix has gotten out there, it's almost always the mastering engineer which for this album is Brad Blackwood @ Euphonic Masters.

    I don't think Dave has much of a clue about this stuff and if he wants it slammed, they slam it.
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    Old 06-21-2018, 09:12 AM   #13
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmb417 View Post
    Love everything about this post, thanks for the effort!
    Also, when/how did Batson say that Dave wants it this way?


    He mentioned that Dave likes it loud in one of his Instagram posts when I commented on how overly aggressive I found the mastering to be.
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    Old 06-21-2018, 10:13 AM   #14
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    I believe it's one of the following:

    1) They (Dave / Flohr) think people like it this way despite no-one ever petitioning the music industry to do so
    2) They like it this way
    3) They think it will make their album stand out more on the radio (it does the opposite)

    It's not the exact same team when it comes to the LT releases and that team has been more receptive to feedback and has reached IMO an acceptable compromise (short of offering two masterings) between loud and dynamic; most LTs are usually scoring between DR8-10 on the TT meter whereas the last three studio albums have been 6 (CT) and 7 (BWGK/AFTW).

    As for Evans' involvement, without having access to the unmastered version of CT we can't say for certain how much of this is the mixing teams fault and how much is the mastering engineer's fault. In my experience, from the few examples we have from artists where a mix has gotten out there, it's almost always the mastering engineer which for this album is Brad Blackwood @ Euphonic Masters.

    I don't think Dave has much of a clue about this stuff and if he wants it slammed, they slam it.
    Batson said as much right? I think even in response to you on Instagram if I remember correctly.

    Nevermind just saw your post above.
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    Old 06-21-2018, 10:15 AM   #15
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    COCO has audible distortion to me too. It is way too hot, in fact it's their most slammed studio album to date.
    Yes. Couldn't stand listening to it on my Grado's.
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    Old 06-21-2018, 10:16 AM   #16
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    I believe it's one of the following:

    1) They (Dave / Flohr) think people like it this way despite no-one ever petitioning the music industry to do so
    2) They like it this way
    3) They think it will make their album stand out more on the radio (it does the opposite)

    It's not the exact same team when it comes to the LT releases and that team has been more receptive to feedback and has reached IMO an acceptable compromise (short of offering two masterings) between loud and dynamic; most LTs are usually scoring between DR8-10 on the TT meter whereas the last three studio albums have been 6 (CT) and 7 (BWGK/AFTW).

    As for Evans' involvement, without having access to the unmastered version of CT we can't say for certain how much of this is the mixing teams fault and how much is the mastering engineer's fault. In my experience, from the few examples we have from artists where a mix has gotten out there, it's almost always the mastering engineer which for this album is Brad Blackwood @ Euphonic Masters.

    I don't think Dave has much of a clue about this stuff and if he wants it slammed, they slam it.
    I understand. And yeah it is different teams overall so that would change things. I would figure just with the common knowledge now a days on good mixing/mastering and things being too loud, most professionals would try to keep things from being compressed or forced to sound a certain type of way.

    as per our other conversations, I'm finally able to enjoy the recent LT mixed by Evans, and not comparing them to what was done before. even if it isn't all him making the changes, they changed once he started doing them so I'll assume he has something to do with it. instruments may not be as prominent as before, but maybe that's just how they were recorded that given night. hard to know like you said.
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    Old 06-21-2018, 10:18 AM   #17
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Even a hot master like BTCS still gives off the illusion of dynamics within the music, which (and I may be wrong) is more of a testament to SL's mixing work. This album to me feels like it failed at both the mixing level and mastering level. Some songs are definitely far worse than others though.
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    Old 06-21-2018, 10:01 PM   #18
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Anyone else irritated by the transition from That Girl is You to She?? She starts off so loud that it's startling... Especially when you are blaring the tunes... Just wish they either toned it down a little or placed She on a track after an equally loud song
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    Old 06-21-2018, 11:29 PM   #19
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    She is the only song to me that feels "blasted". I'm a huge fan of the production / mixing on the album. Only noticeable thing for me is that "OVER AND AGAIN" - sounds scratchy like the gain is too high... not sure if that was intentional distortion or if it just went uncaught.
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    Old 07-02-2018, 11:47 PM   #20
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Just received the white vinyl, arrived today here in Richmond. Listened to it once on by Senn hd650 cans and once on B&W 683 towers.

    There's some occasional surface noise heard particularly on headphones. I did clean with the Okki Nokki first. I don't think the vinyl sounds hot. I wouldn't call it brickwalled either. But it definitely may be compressed. Overall it's about a B. Sounds pretty good but could have been better.

    Does anyone know if this was recordedin analog? Also, any information on who cut it and where? I haven't been able to find any information on the line.
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    Old 07-03-2018, 05:58 AM   #21
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Oh how I wish the industry would start to offer a before limiter and after limiter version of any album. It's too simple to say it like this, but loudness and sound is complicated, so leaving it at that. My initial impression of the production itself, after one listening through, was 'big, fat, due to/and heavy compression'. Second and third listening through, I altered my impression to 'big, fat, fatiguing' and left it at that. In my opinion, the things they got absolutely right is Dave's vocals and Carter's drums, especially the fills. I'm sorry to say but the rest is mud.

    I don't think the mastering engineer is to blame here. This is mostly the mix team's doing.

    To answer the question above: Everything is analogue from source to mic, to board, but it's converted to digital right after the channel strip these days.
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    Old 07-03-2018, 09:22 AM   #22
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Inter View Post
    Oh how I wish the industry would start to offer a before limiter and after limiter version of any album. It's too simple to say it like this, but loudness and sound is complicated, so leaving it at that. My initial impression of the production itself, after one listening through, was 'big, fat, due to/and heavy compression'. Second and third listening through, I altered my impression to 'big, fat, fatiguing' and left it at that. In my opinion, the things they got absolutely right is Dave's vocals and Carter's drums, especially the fills. I'm sorry to say but the rest is mud.

    I don't think the mastering engineer is to blame here. This is mostly the mix team's doing.

    To answer the question above: Everything is analogue from source to mic, to board, but it's converted to digital right after the channel strip these days.
    So you are saying it is a digital pressing? I'm not familiar enough with the entire process, particularly related to the channel strip. If you are saying that this is a digital pressing because they all are, these days, I don't think that's accurate. Jack White, as an example, records to magnetic tape. I know he's an unusual guy. Do you know who cut the lacquer and where it happened?
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    Old 07-03-2018, 09:45 AM   #23
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    For instance, if you have a mic connected to your PC or laptop via USB, and you record a signal into that mic, the signal will at it's point of origin be analogue (your voice or whatever you record), but as soon as it's been recorded by the mic, the mic will convert the signal to digital (0's and 1's) to represent that signal digitally. The reason it does this is it's the only way the USB interface the mic is connected to can understand what it's getting. It's called ADC (analogue-to-digital conversion).

    Now in studios, the ADC usually does not occur in a USB mic, but at a later stage, usually in the mixing board the studio is using. For your example about Jack White, and others, who record to magnetic tape. This means the signal will travel from it's point of origin, voice or instrument, to the mic, from the mic to the board and from the board to magnetic tape, without ever being converted to a digital signal. It will be altered, as anything a signal travels through will alter it in some way, however miniscule, but it will never have been into the digital domain.
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    Old 07-03-2018, 10:37 AM   #24
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Right, I understand how converting voice to digits blows up the chain. But Jack does magnetic tape to the mixing board and then it makes its way to the lacquer cut without ever being digitized. Do you know that's not the case for Come Tomorrow? I haven't found anything online about where or how any of this happened. Further, the vinyl jacket doesn't tell me any information either. I haven't tried to read the run out groove yet though. I find it informative to know who cut the lacquer. Luther was cut by Kevin Grey, for Crash, they say they went back to the original analog master and remastered by Chris Bellman. So Dave has hired the best in the business already, presumably he knows the value of cutting from the analog. Considering this album was recorded after the beginning of the vinyl boom, I would hope he would have kept the chain analog. Yet, after listening to it, it does seem a bit compressed. Maybe it is simply a mix issue. I would not call the vinyl "mush" though. It sounds better than that. Just not as much range as I would like. I know most probably don't care about this, but I'm very interested in the lineage of recordings.
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    Old 07-03-2018, 11:12 AM   #25
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrussel1 View Post
    Right, I understand how converting voice to digits blows up the chain. But Jack does magnetic tape to the mixing board and then it makes its way to the lacquer cut without ever being digitized. Do you know that's not the case for Come Tomorrow? I haven't found anything online about where or how any of this happened. Further, the vinyl jacket doesn't tell me any information either. I haven't tried to read the run out groove yet though. I find it informative to know who cut the lacquer. Luther was cut by Kevin Grey, for Crash, they say they went back to the original analog master and remastered by Chris Bellman. So Dave has hired the best in the business already, presumably he knows the value of cutting from the analog. Considering this album was recorded after the beginning of the vinyl boom, I would hope he would have kept the chain analog. Yet, after listening to it, it does seem a bit compressed. Maybe it is simply a mix issue. I would not call the vinyl "mush" though. It sounds better than that. Just not as much range as I would like. I know most probably don't care about this, but I'm very interested in the lineage of recordings.
    A couple things here:

    A) It isn't worth it to try to compare anyone else in music to Jack White when it comes to vinyl - the dude is more obsessed than any of us! He started his own pressing plant; that is dedication

    B) CT was almost definitely digital, I would be a ton of money on that being the case. Just the way it is.

    C) You can't really compared the back catalog (Luther, Crash, etc) to pressings of new stuff. Different people handling them. Dave didn't person ask for Bellman, to the best of my knowledge at least.
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    Old 07-03-2018, 02:50 PM   #26
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Dave doesn't understand any of this stuff, the reason Crash was done properly was because there are a handful of people in management that are also big fans of vinyl who have been open-minded to constructive feedback from a few people as obsessed about this stuff as Jack White is on how to take vinyl releases the extra mile.

    Come Tomorrow was absolutely a digital recording, just listen to what John Alagia says about having to bounce a bunch of tracks down - "my PC couldn't take it".
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    Old 07-03-2018, 04:52 PM   #27
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Goddammit. You guys could have lied to me.
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    Old 07-04-2018, 05:19 AM   #28
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Oh CT is most definitely a digital production. It reeks of plugins and the production screams "modern".

    I don't have the vinyl and I would have to listen to it to determine whether it's a different master or the CD master with it's volume turned down to avoid clipping. Perhaps Doby can shed some light on that?
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    Old 07-04-2018, 02:57 PM   #29
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    I just did an A/B, flipping between the white vinyl and my own CD rip, streamed. I agree it's likely digital, but I found the vinyl to be much higher quality than the CD. This was the first time I listened to the cd outside of a car (obviously inferior system), and it is mushy and I think it's distant. The imaging is quite poor. The vinyl's imaging is much better, but still not great. Listening on the Senn 650's, I could pick out electric, acoustic, base and drums pretty clearly. The horns, violins and pianos are definitely more difficult to discern.

    Probably the same master, as you guys have pointed out, but perhaps the vinyl has a higher depth and resolution version, incompatible with a CD. The white vinyl is definitely noisy. I still give it about a B/B- as a vinyl. Has anyone heard if the black vinyl has similar surface noise?
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    Old 07-05-2018, 11:16 AM   #30
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    Re: Come Tomorrow mix/master discussion

    Bit depth only changes potential dyanmic range, not audible sound (also allows for better digital mixing/editing) - so 16-bit allows for 96dB of dyanmic range while 24-bit allows for 144dB; of course with a rock record averaging only 6dB of dynamic range you can see why this isn't important. The sampling rate of the master is 24/48, so the CD is only missing 3900 samples/sec or the ability to reproduce frequencies between 22050Hz and 24000Hz vs. the vinyl master.

    Because vinyl colors the sound, it's impossible to do a true double blind listening test, but I fully expect were they to send you the cutting files, your results between the vinyl cutting master and the CD would be 50/50 (chance).

    There's certainly a chance your analog chain may be superior to your digital chain thus offering you a more pleasant playback experience, no one should discount that possibility.

    Certainly shows that whomever made the decisions on CT (URP?) was not the same person making the decisions on Crash, Luther and RR95. You would think for a major album release (vs a catalogue reissue) that the extra money to do a separate master would be far easier to cover with retail revenue.
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