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Old 06-13-2017, 05:22 PM   #30031
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Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby View Post
Maybe I skimmed thru too quickly but it seems like the argument from the last page or so is just a miscommunication on one word.

EDIT: post 30002?
No worries!

Would you support universal + sin tax?
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  • Old 06-13-2017, 05:23 PM   #30032
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coldengrey12 View Post
    You will live as the government tells you to live, emotional flesh sack.


    Nobody has said this. You trolling? I literally said people should listen to their Dr.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:25 PM   #30033
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rickyh24 View Post
    Nobody has said this. You trolling? I literally said people should listen to their Dr.
    Perhaps a little column A and a little column B.

    I do think that under a universal health care system run by The Man, penalizing people for their lifestyle choices would come off as kind of draconian.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:26 PM   #30034
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    Honestly I don't think it will impact it either way. I also dont think obscene sin taxes will much impact choices. BUT they would raise a shit ton of money, and the majority of that money will come from people making poor health decisions most often. And I think there would be savings w/ universal from overall administration costs, drug prices, and savings from preventative care versus waiting for mild issues to turn into emergencies.


    Interesting if it wouldn't impact it either way. I find that hard to believe but I'm all ears if it doesn't. Im definitely fine with certain items being taxed more. I agree it wouldn't impact any choices though.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:27 PM   #30035
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Love the idea of sin tax. Alcohol, tobacco, sugar, weed....tax it all. Put it towards care or research or something.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:28 PM   #30036
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    I think that part of the problem is that people assume that most pre-existing conditions can be solved by just living a better lifestyle
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    Originally Posted by Rebecca De Mornay View Post
    bills are paying the jags o-line coach 4 million this year.

    that will be a tough one for the aliens to figure out.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:28 PM   #30037
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coldengrey12 View Post
    Perhaps a little column A and a little column B.

    I do think that under a universal health care system run by The Man, penalizing people for their lifestyle choices would come off as kind of draconian.
    draconian? charging people more for sugar and cigs is draconian when they are getting free healthcare in return?
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:30 PM   #30038
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thebridge15 View Post
    I think that part of the problem is that people assume that most pre-existing conditions can be solved by just living a better lifestyle
    I've posted stats on costs directly associated with obesity in this thread previously. It's an obscenely high amount.

    In fact...I think people incorrectly assume, to a fucking ridiculously large extent, that their shitty eating habits don't really impact their overall health.

    We are a FAT fucking nation. One of the major reasons our healthcare costs are so high.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:34 PM   #30039
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    "Spending per capita for obese adults exceeded spending for adults of normal weight by about 8 percent in 1987 and by about 38 percent in 2007. That increasing gap in spending between the two groups probably reflects a combination of factors, including changes in the average health status of the obese population and technological advances that offer new, costly treatments for conditions that are particularly common among obese individuals."

    Obesity costs 38% more...and that number was from 2007 and was increasing significantly.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:35 PM   #30040
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thebridge15 View Post
    I think that part of the problem is that people assume that most pre-existing conditions can be solved by just living a better lifestyle


    Not necessarily solved in most cases. I don't think their is a decent argument against listening to drs orders though. Especially when talking about diabetes, cholesterol, blood pressure etc. Things like that are fairly easy to manage with a little effort.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:36 PM   #30041
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    "Spending per capita for obese adults exceeded spending for adults of normal weight by about 8 percent in 1987 and by about 38 percent in 2007. That increasing gap in spending between the two groups probably reflects a combination of factors, including changes in the average health status of the obese population and technological advances that offer new, costly treatments for conditions that are particularly common among obese individuals."

    Obesity costs 38% more...and that number was from 2007 and was increasing significantly.
    holy shit, that's bad

    what's the source?
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rebecca De Mornay View Post
    bills are paying the jags o-line coach 4 million this year.

    that will be a tough one for the aliens to figure out.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:36 PM   #30042
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lee3691 View Post
    Days to hit a 60% disapproval rating:

    Carter: Never
    Reagan: Never
    H.W. Bush: Never
    Clinton: Never
    W. Bush: 1,756
    Obama: Never
    Trump: 144
    Absolutely staggering.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:39 PM   #30043
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rickyh24 View Post
    Interesting if it wouldn't impact it either way. I find that hard to believe but I'm all ears if it doesn't. Im definitely fine with certain items being taxed more. I agree it wouldn't impact any choices though.
    One area it may impact choices is those in poverty...where cheap, sugary foods are staples. If beans and rice are all of a sudden significantly cheaper, it may impact choices there....maybe....

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arby View Post
    Love the idea of sin tax. Alcohol, tobacco, sugar, weed....tax it all. Put it towards care or research or something.

    We've got a plan! Now we just need a name!
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:40 PM   #30044
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thebridge15 View Post
    holy shit, that's bad

    what's the source?
    That was from a CBO article: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/21772
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:42 PM   #30045
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    This also has a brief summary, with citations if you want to dig deeper:

    http://stateofobesity.org/healthcare-costs-obesity/


    Obese adults spend 42 percent more on direct healthcare costs than adults who are a healthy weight.5
    Per capita healthcare costs for severely or morbidly obese adults (BMI >40) are 81 percent higher than for healthy weight adults.6 In 2000, around $11 billion was spent on medical expenditures for morbidly obese U.S. adults.
    Moderately obese (BMI between 30 and 35) individuals are more than twice as likely as healthy weight individuals to be prescribed prescription pharmaceuticals to manage medical conditions.7
    Costs for patients presenting at emergency rooms with chest pains are 41 percent higher for severely obese patients, 28 percent higher for obese patients and 22 percent higher for overweight patients than for healthy- weight patients.8

    Last edited by MDPrompter; 06-13-2017 at 05:43 PM.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:44 PM   #30046
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    And that's just obesity. I'm sure there are similar stats out there for heavy drinkers and smokers.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:49 PM   #30047
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    That was from a CBO article: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/21772
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    This also has a brief summary, with citations if you want to dig deeper:

    http://stateofobesity.org/healthcare-costs-obesity/


    Obese adults spend 42 percent more on direct healthcare costs than adults who are a healthy weight.5
    Per capita healthcare costs for severely or morbidly obese adults (BMI >40) are 81 percent higher than for healthy weight adults.6 In 2000, around $11 billion was spent on medical expenditures for morbidly obese U.S. adults.
    Moderately obese (BMI between 30 and 35) individuals are more than twice as likely as healthy weight individuals to be prescribed prescription pharmaceuticals to manage medical conditions.7
    Costs for patients presenting at emergency rooms with chest pains are 41 percent higher for severely obese patients, 28 percent higher for obese patients and 22 percent higher for overweight patients than for healthy- weight patients.8
    this is interesting, thanks
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rebecca De Mornay View Post
    bills are paying the jags o-line coach 4 million this year.

    that will be a tough one for the aliens to figure out.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:50 PM   #30048
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thebridge15 View Post
    this is interesting, thanks
    anytime!
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:51 PM   #30049
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    I think the only way of doing it is taxing known bads. Sugar, alcohol, tobacco...gray area on what evidence you need to add something to the list, but I think those 3 would go a long way to paying for universal care.
    I am no fan of sin taxes at all. I can understand why some people think we need them but much like idiotic gun laws they end up targeting the wrong people. Take myself for example, I will be 40 in a month - I smoke just shy of a pack of lights a day, I average about 6 alcoholic drinks per month, have the occasional cigar every few months, I avoid sugary and fatty foods, I do not do drugs except when told to do so by my doc, my health is damn good and I work every damn day to stay in shape by running, swimming and playing sports. So as far as risks go I am not really a big health risk anytime soon yet when I occasionally buy something others consider 'bad' I get whacked in taxes as bad as some 400 pound tubbo, a fall down drunk or a chain smoker - is that remotely fair?

    Sure, I know my cigarettes do not have vitamin D in them or something and maybe decades from now I will end up with lung cancer due to my smoking but is that costing the taxpayer any more than the drunk who needs a new liver or the fat ass who has a heart attack or the opiod user who OD's and needs a lengthy hospital stay? The reason I ask is because currently in the US I pay about ten bucks a pack for cigarettes, when I leave the US and purchase them in other countries (the exact same brand) they cost me $1.25 per pack - that is not taxation nor is it a sin tax, it is pretty much theft on a massive scale. The argument to tax tobacco is always about what the healthcare costs will be, how come that never comes up when we talk about drunks, drug addicts and fatsos? While I cannot speak for all smokers I have no more desire to pay for someone else's self-induced health problems than anyone else wants to pay for my possible lung cancer - yet only the smokers are taxed at such a ridiculous rate. Worse smokers are treated as second hand citizens while a crackhead is somehow a victim of the system, a drunk is laughed at as harmless and a tubbo is always somehow supported by idiotic arguments like 'they can't afford better food.'

    Maybe we should treat every risk taker like a smoker - lets tax the shit out of jack daniels or ben and jerries at the same rate as tobacco. Lets force people over say 350lbs to park at least 10 rows from the supermarkets so they get some exercise walking from their cars and not allow them to use elevators so they can use the steps and drop a few pounds at the local Macy's. Quit acting like drug addicts are victims and raise their insurance premiums 900% (approximately what tobacco is taxed in the NE) after testing positive for heroin or blow and if they OD make them do community service until they have paid back their hospital bill.

    That is what I do not like about sin taxes, they are not implemented evenly at all. The smoker is always the bed person, the drunk is lovable and harmless and the fatso's and drug addicts are victims. The convoluted logic just makes no sense to me at all. If you want to implement a sin tax so be it but apply it evenly to every dangerous thing people can put in their bodies.
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    Last edited by Lcsulla; 06-13-2017 at 05:52 PM.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 05:55 PM   #30050
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lcsulla View Post
    I am no fan of sin taxes at all. I can understand why some people think we need them but much like idiotic gun laws they end up targeting the wrong people. Take myself for example, I will be 40 in a month - I smoke just shy of a pack of lights a day, I average about 6 alcoholic drinks per month, have the occasional cigar every few months, I avoid sugary and fatty foods, I do not do drugs except when told to do so by my doc, my health is damn good and I work every damn day to stay in shape by running, swimming and playing sports. So as far as risks go I am not really a big health risk anytime soon yet when I occasionally buy something others consider 'bad' I get whacked in taxes as bad as some 400 pound tubbo, a fall down drunk or a chain smoker - is that remotely fair?

    Sure, I know my cigarettes do not have vitamin D in them or something and maybe decades from now I will end up with lung cancer due to my smoking but is that costing the taxpayer any more than the drunk who needs a new liver or the fat ass who has a heart attack or the opiod user who OD's and needs a lengthy hospital stay? The reason I ask is because currently in the US I pay about ten bucks a pack for cigarettes, when I leave the US and purchase them in other countries (the exact same brand) they cost me $1.25 per pack - that is not taxation nor is it a sin tax, it is pretty much theft on a massive scale. The argument to tax tobacco is always about what the healthcare costs will be, how come that never comes up when we talk about drunks, drug addicts and fatsos? While I cannot speak for all smokers I have no more desire to pay for someone else's self-induced health problems than anyone else wants to pay for my possible lung cancer - yet only the smokers are taxed at such a ridiculous rate. Worse smokers are treated as second hand citizens while a crackhead is somehow a victim of the system, a drunk is laughed at as harmless and a tubbo is always somehow supported by idiotic arguments like 'they can't afford better food.'

    Maybe we should treat every risk taker like a smoker - lets tax the shit out of jack daniels or ben and jerries at the same rate as tobacco. Lets force people over say 350lbs to park at least 10 rows from the supermarkets so they get some exercise walking from their cars and not allow them to use elevators so they can use the steps and drop a few pounds at the local Macy's. Quit acting like drug addicts are victims and raise their insurance premiums 900% (approximately what tobacco is taxed in the NE) after testing positive for heroin or blow and if they OD make them do community service until they have paid back their hospital bill.

    That is what I do not like about sin taxes, they are not implemented evenly at all. The smoker is always the bed person, the drunk is lovable and harmless and the fatso's and drug addicts are victims. The convoluted logic just makes no sense to me at all. If you want to implement a sin tax so be it but apply it evenly to every dangerous thing people can put in their bodies.

    Agree they aren't even...Let's fix that! #[insert catchy name for universal coverage plus obscene sin tax]!
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    Old 06-13-2017, 06:04 PM   #30051
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    Agree they aren't even...Let's fix that! #[insert catchy name for universal coverage plus obscene sin tax]!
    #CavefeTax maybe?
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    Old 06-13-2017, 06:25 PM   #30052
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coldengrey12 View Post
    A dated example, but what about someone like Jim Fixx? Health nut and runner. Fucking guy dropped dead of a heart attack at 52. So I still dunno what "the right lifestyle" means.
    As a pharmacist for 21 years now, I have seen it all. The whole lifestyle thing is tough as I am a firm believer that genes play a huge role in your health. I have seen countless people who appear to in good health die young, have heart attacks, and been on all sorts of meds whereas Ill have patients who have been obese for years barely be on any meds and live long lives.

    That said, I definitely promote healthy eating, exercise, etc because it's been proven to work , especially for, say, type 2 diabetics. They lose weight and they get off meds, avoid insulin, etc. But I do think good genes are the number 1 key to a long life.

    I have seen so much from medicaid abuse, seniors deciding between groceries or their meds to the ridiculous costs of prescription meds. Too bad big pharma in the pockets of so many congressmen. No reason for meds to costs so much more here than overseas for the same pill made in the same factory.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 07:35 PM   #30053
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Not to mention stress is a big health factor. Need to tax people who take on too much, create drama or can't get their shit together.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 07:37 PM   #30054
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdmarvich View Post
    you could also provide tax credits for passing certain fitness challenges...running a mile < 8 minutes, swimming a mile, etc. but that's hard to implement. not sure if overhead would cover cost savings from behavioral change

    Under Allison's new health care (United) with her new job (and thus my new health care) we get gift cards for doing shit like going to a yearly checkup, getting blood work done, getting a cancer screening, get a flu shot... there's a whole check list of shit with different amounts. There may even be a fitness aspect with something like a Fitbit, but I'm not positive. We haven't had it that long, so I haven't really looked into it.

    Now, obviously United gives zero fucks about how healthy I am beyond how it affects their bottom line, so that tells me that the incentive program, and the better health or early detection it could lead to, will save them enough money long term to make it worthwhile.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 07:43 PM   #30055
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ExistenceNow View Post
    Under Allison's new health care (United) with her new job (and thus my new health care) we get gift cards for doing shit like going to a yearly checkup, getting blood work done, getting a cancer screening, get a flu shot... there's a whole check list of shit with different amounts. There may even be a fitness aspect with something like a Fitbit, but I'm not positive. We haven't had it that long, so I haven't really looked into it.

    Now, obviously United gives zero fucks about how healthy I am beyond how it affects their bottom line, so that tells me that the incentive program, and the better health or early detection it could lead to, will save them enough money long term to make it worthwhile.
    exactly. hell, i don't have to pay any premiums for September or October simply because I got a physical last week, that Loomis paid for
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    Old 06-13-2017, 07:47 PM   #30056
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    the Bernie guy and the Trump guy both lost the Dem and GOP primaries for Virginia Gov, maybe it is a time for moderates
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    Old 06-13-2017, 08:32 PM   #30057
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ExistenceNow View Post
    Under Allison's new health care (United) with her new job (and thus my new health care) we get gift cards for doing shit like going to a yearly checkup, getting blood work done, getting a cancer screening, get a flu shot... there's a whole check list of shit with different amounts. There may even be a fitness aspect with something like a Fitbit, but I'm not positive. We haven't had it that long, so I haven't really looked into it.

    Now, obviously United gives zero fucks about how healthy I am beyond how it affects their bottom line, so that tells me that the incentive program, and the better health or early detection it could lead to, will save them enough money long term to make it worthwhile.
    It all depends if your wife's employer has a self-funded or fully insured plan through United, but there if it's self-funded then it'd be her employer who is offering it because they're convinced the incentives are better for their bottom line. The idea behind your thought is correct though.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 09:55 PM   #30058
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Must have been a rough day for the Russia conspiracy theorists if we're talking about healthcare.

    Glad Gillepsie won in VA.
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    Old 06-13-2017, 11:27 PM   #30059
    diableri
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by salrx95 View Post
    As a pharmacist for 21 years now, I have seen it all. The whole lifestyle thing is tough as I am a firm believer that genes play a huge role in your health. I have seen countless people who appear to in good health die young, have heart attacks, and been on all sorts of meds whereas Ill have patients who have been obese for years barely be on any meds and live long lives.

    That said, I definitely promote healthy eating, exercise, etc because it's been proven to work , especially for, say, type 2 diabetics. They lose weight and they get off meds, avoid insulin, etc. But I do think good genes are the number 1 key to a long life.

    I have seen so much from medicaid abuse, seniors deciding between groceries or their meds to the ridiculous costs of prescription meds. Too bad big pharma in the pockets of so many congressmen. No reason for meds to costs so much more here than overseas for the same pill made in the same factory.


    I think it's worth stating (even if it should be obvious) that there's not much you can do about your genes but you can do something about your lifestyle.
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    Old 06-14-2017, 01:19 AM   #30060
    coldengrey12
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    Re: ** The Trump Thread SAFE SPACE ** (NO Personal Attacks; NO Trolling)

    Happy birthday to Our Dear Leader.

    All Americans are granted an interval of appreciation time today to thank Our Dear Leader for being born.
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