Lillywhite is a production god - Page 7 - Antsmarching.org Forums - Dave Matthews Band Discussion
Old 02-17-2012, 11:41 AM   #181
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Re: Lillywhite is a production god

Quote:
Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
My understanding is that when they do the vinyl it will be from the original tapes, so headroom shouldn't come into play at all no?
In the 70s and early 80s, before digital processing was introduced in 1984 with the Brothers In Arms album from Dire Straits, most mixing engineers left as much as 20-30db headroom for a mastering engineer to play with and with the mastering engineer usually making the mix perhaps 2-10db louder with some final eq tweaking. That left 10-15db headroom unused to 0db. The dynamic range of the mix itself was untouched due to unused headroom. An example of this are old albums where the range might go from -30db to -15db with 15db left for headroom, after mastering.

But this changed in the late 80s and early 90s with the advent of digital compression. Engineers started to push their mixes louder leaving less and less headroom and a tighter dynamic range for the mastering engineer who proceeded to make the mix even hotter layering more compression on top of the already hot mix. They started to compress tracks much tighter and often louder, sucking out more and more dynamic range of the mix itself. When handed to a mastering engineer, he would proceed to compress the mix even louder, and when reaching a brickwall of -0.1, cutting any peak above this further making an already compressed mix even hotter.

Quote:
As for Lillywhite himself, he has this to say:
That's good that he is leaving headroom to work with and hopefully a nice and large dynamic range of the mix itself. Now it's up to the mastering engineer to not make the mix way hotter because it just adds another layer of compression, further decreasing the dynamic range.
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  • Old 02-17-2012, 11:49 AM   #182
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    Re: Lillywhite is a production god

    I forgot to say that in the late 80s and early 90s there was a shift in attitude towards the sanctity and preservation of dynamic range. It was fueled by radio stations which started to compress their outgoing signal louder, as to appear in front of everyone else. It really was a slippery slope we see the effects of today and probably in many years to come.
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    Old 02-17-2012, 04:10 PM   #183
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    Re: Lillywhite is a production god

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Inter View Post
    In the 70s and early 80s, before digital processing was introduced in 1984 with the Brothers In Arms album from Dire Straits, most mixing engineers left as much as 20-30db headroom for a mastering engineer to play with and with the mastering engineer usually making the mix perhaps 2-10db louder with some final eq tweaking. That left 10-15db headroom unused to 0db. The dynamic range of the mix itself was untouched due to unused headroom. An example of this are old albums where the range might go from -30db to -15db with 15db left for headroom, after mastering.

    But this changed in the late 80s and early 90s with the advent of digital compression. Engineers started to push their mixes louder leaving less and less headroom and a tighter dynamic range for the mastering engineer who proceeded to make the mix even hotter layering more compression on top of the already hot mix. They started to compress tracks much tighter and often louder, sucking out more and more dynamic range of the mix itself. When handed to a mastering engineer, he would proceed to compress the mix even louder, and when reaching a brickwall of -0.1, cutting any peak above this further making an already compressed mix even hotter.

    That's good that he is leaving headroom to work with and hopefully a nice and large dynamic range of the mix itself. Now it's up to the mastering engineer to not make the mix way hotter because it just adds another layer of compression, further decreasing the dynamic range.
    Unfortunately the one part you're missing is, headroom has nothing to do with dynamic range. You can have a CD with 16dB headroom and 2dB dynamic range. The dynamics weren't left untouched because of the headroom. Unfortunately no-one was ever smart enough to realize that the massive amounts of compression used in FM broadcasts will have everything sounding the same anyway.

    And yes, 16dB was the norm two decades ago. I have many 80's CD's that sound so much better remastered (sarcasm) but I hold on to my originals.

    Although the SACD/DualDisc of Brothers In Arms blows the original CD away.
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    Last edited by dobyblue; 02-17-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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    Old 02-18-2012, 02:31 AM   #184
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    Re: Lillywhite is a production god

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    You can have a CD with 16dB headroom and 2dB dynamic range.
    I was wondering if I managed to convey that correctly, reading my response. What you are saying was, among the other things, what I was trying to say.

    Quote:
    And yes, 16dB was the norm two decades ago. I have many 80's CD's that sound so much better remastered (sarcasm) but I hold on to my originals.
    Remasters are a scourge. Not because they might have been cleaned up, which is a good thing, but because they just can't resist compressing the mix hotter.
    Quote:
    Although the SACD/DualDisc of Brothers In Arms blows the original CD away.
    Indeed.
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    Old 02-18-2012, 04:35 AM   #185
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    Re: Lillywhite is a production god

    I know Hoffman is a busy dude, but I would just about wet my shorts if he got the gig to do the DMB vinyl.

    There's a pretty cool collection of various responses from Steve put together here if anyone that likes to geek out on audio wants an interesting read. Obviously there is much more info within Hoffman's forums.

    http://www.stevehoffman.tv/dhinterviews/HoffSound.htm

    One of the things I smiled at:

    Quote:
    The trick of making a good record, is to, well, make a good record. This means following certain "rules". Among them are the two most basic:

    Rule one: The sound has to be louder than the noise of the vinyl.

    Rule two: The sound can't be too loud or the groove will break.

    End of old rules. New rules:

    STEVE'S RULES:

    I will not add ANY limiting or compression to our discs while cutting, even if the dynamic range on the master tapes is greater than the range of our VU meters (amazing, but true!)

    I will not tamper in any way with the pure tonality of the original master recordings, even if one drum "thwack" is 10db hotter than the rest of the music floor.

    Kevin and I will not cut too far into the record center at 45 RPM so that even an average stylus can track the groove with ease.

    I will not let Kevin strangle me or kick my ass in any way, even though he wants to by now.
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    Old 02-18-2012, 10:32 AM   #186
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    Re: Lillywhite is a production god

    Steve is a great engineer. I wish more was like him.
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    Old 02-19-2012, 11:06 AM   #187
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    Re: Lillywhite is a production god

    Even assuming that the Big 3 were to get treated well in the remastering-for-vinyl process, I have some doubts that they would sound better on balance than the original CDs (although I'd definitely get them for a detailed C&C).
    This is because current pressings tend to have massive physical defects, which I suspect stem from a lack of upkeep and routine replacement of the manufacturing machinery.
    Every time I get a newly-pressed record, whether it's a remaster of a classic or a new album, there's a shit-ton of surface noise, and the inner groove distortion is so bad as to render the last track on either side unlistenable. Plus, a full half the time the record will be visibly warped right out of the store, leaving me with no recourse but to enjoy watching the tonearm bob up and down and pretend the tremendous thwipping is part of the music.
    No matter how much TLC some marquis engineer lavishes on the master, these pervasive manufacturing issues will not be avoided.
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    Old 02-21-2012, 05:53 AM   #188
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    Re: Lillywhite is a production god

    I have found most of the recent pressings I've gotten have been terrific, but I guess I'm also quite choosy as to who is doing it.

    The Dire Straits Pallas-pressed catalogue done by Grundman were amazing, Love Over Gold was even better than the recent Japan-issued SHM-SACD (which I spent $56 buying to compare!).

    The Nirvana pressings from ORG were fantastic, the blue vinyl is the best I've ever heard Nevermind comparing it to Geffen and MOFI pressings. And all the MOFI pressings done at RTI are whisper quiet as well.

    This is why I have high hopes for DMB's vinyl, because it would be done properly and not whisked off for regular pressings like Big Whiskey was. There's no way they would be single LP releases so inner groove distortion shouldn't occur. I did notice a lot of what you're talking about in 2008/2009 when it seemed the business was picking back up at a fast rate (in terms of units sold increase by year). Universal did some terrible pressings in their back 2 black series. The Tool vinyl releases, Smashing Pumpkins, I found them to be pretty poor indeed.

    But if they're done at RTI, Pallas, even QRP (Acoustic Sounds new pressing centre) then I believe there is a very good chance they will be golden. Let's just hope they're as important to RLM as they are to us!
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