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Old 11-12-2021, 07:26 PM   #151
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Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

I bought the CDs for LT58, the vinyl, the t-shirt, and the poster. Super pumped!
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  • Old 11-17-2021, 02:09 PM   #152
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    The Stone has been posted-

    https://youtu.be/tJZrZFM1Rw8
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    Old 11-17-2021, 02:35 PM   #153
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    This Stone isn't as good as LT57, but it's still The Stone. Amazed Butch showed up later in the summer tour.
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    Old 11-17-2021, 02:51 PM   #154
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    They really cleaned up Boyd at parts too. They're wizards at that.
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    Old 11-17-2021, 06:18 PM   #155
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    9/2/00 best stone. Live 25 version

    So so good
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    Old 11-17-2021, 08:39 PM   #156
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Just finished my first listen of The Stone preview for LT58 and it sounds beautiful. Really nice mix; good separation and overall clarity. I can hear everyone very clearly and I'm stoked to relive the rest of the show in a few weeks.

    One weird thing, though: is it just me, or does the YouTube preview cut off the very last note of the song?! I thought my wifi dropped at the worst possible moment or something, haha - but rewound it 10 seconds and it seems like maybe that's just how it is. Hope that's not the case on the actual files; won't be fun to have this one pop up on shuffle and never get to hear the ending each time around, lol.
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    Old 11-17-2021, 09:36 PM   #157
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    Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    The abrupt ending is because they transitioned right into Drive In Drive Out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Old 11-18-2021, 12:50 AM   #158
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    They were bad men in their pinnacle, still are.
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    Old 11-18-2021, 11:56 AM   #159
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aaronvl View Post
    The abrupt ending is because they transitioned right into Drive In Drive Out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The Stone/Drive In combo happened during a lot of shows in 2000. It opened and closed Hartford, full circle.
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    Old 11-18-2021, 02:40 PM   #160
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aaronvl View Post
    The abrupt ending is because they transitioned right into Drive In Drive Out.
    Oh, I'm with you, bud. I definitely remember the transition into DIDO that night (heck of a way to kick off the weekend at Deer Creek!)... and if they did indeed cut off the end of The Stone when they split the tracks for CD/download and made that last hit of The Stone the very beginning of DIDO instead, it's not some unforgivable error or anything. I do think being precise in small details like that will make for a better experience whenever one of us is listening on shuffle or adding this version of The Stone to a playlist, as those are both things that I do myself with performances I love, but that won't impact too many people in the grand scheme of things.
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    Old 11-19-2021, 12:40 AM   #161
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djamieb View Post
    Oh, I'm with you, bud. I definitely remember the transition into DIDO that night (heck of a way to kick off the weekend at Deer Creek!)... and if they did indeed cut off the end of The Stone when they split the tracks for CD/download and made that last hit of The Stone the very beginning of DIDO instead, it's not some unforgivable error or anything. I do think being precise in small details like that will make for a better experience whenever one of us is listening on shuffle or adding this version of The Stone to a playlist, as those are both things that I do myself with performances I love, but that won't impact too many people in the grand scheme of things.

    Technically, when you have the whole CD, then you could also join the tracks and eventually resplitting them the way you like, is that possible?
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    Old 11-19-2021, 09:59 AM   #162
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Ohhh!!! The ending is actually much better listening on the Desktop version of YouTube. When I was on the phone app, it was fully cutting off the entire last hit of the song - not even a hint of that final note. But I just listened again this morning on my computer and most of that final hit is there (as much as can be squeezed in without cutting off the first notes of DIDO, I'm sure). It must be just a mobile app thing; it was cutting off a full second early there, so I wasn't hearing that in the app. Kinda wish I could go delete that part of my initial comment now, lol.
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    Old 11-19-2021, 10:28 AM   #163
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    By the way, I think this particular mix may translate really well to vinyl. It leans toward the mellower side; listen to how they've tamed and eq'd Carter's hats/cymbals and Dave's sibilant sounds (like "s" "sh" and "t", etc.) - they're still clean but without being harsh. It also sounds beautifully full across the midrange and low frequencies. I reckon this could all add up to a really smooth sound on vinyl. Definitely looking forward to listening on that medium as well!
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    Old 11-21-2021, 09:06 PM   #164
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Iíve seen some comments from people wondering about whether the vinyl release will actually have been mastered for vinyl. Seems like the concern is that a master for CD/digital will just get pressed on vinyl. Iím wondering if this can also work in the other direction. In other words, if they knew this was going to be a vinyl release, could they just have mastered it for vinyl and then put the vinyl-optimized master out on CD/digital as well?
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    Old 11-22-2021, 08:00 PM   #165
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Shows were still archived as 16-bit PCMs back in 2000. Those early LTs were mastered very aggressively when first arriving on CD and were begging for a better release sonically which we got from the vinyl releases. But compare the dynamic range from then until now:

    LT02 - DR6
    LT05 - DR6
    LT08 - DR6

    LT55 - DR11
    LT56 - DR11
    LT57 - DR10

    Mastered perfectly for all formats already.

    If you prefer listening to vinyl, as quite a few here do, I have zero doubt these were mastered with loads of dynamics and will sound great on the format because management have demonstrated several times they understand the format's weaknesses (running times/side for example) and avoid them.

    I'm pleasantly surprised the LT series continues to see mastering that's practically audiophile-grade, really looking forward to LT58.
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    Old 11-23-2021, 11:23 AM   #166
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    Shows were still archived as 16-bit PCMs back in 2000. Those early LTs were mastered very aggressively when first arriving on CD and were begging for a better release sonically which we got from the vinyl releases. But compare the dynamic range from then until now:

    LT02 - DR6
    LT05 - DR6
    LT08 - DR6

    LT55 - DR11
    LT56 - DR11
    LT57 - DR10

    Mastered perfectly for all formats already.

    If you prefer listening to vinyl, as quite a few here do, I have zero doubt these were mastered with loads of dynamics and will sound great on the format because management have demonstrated several times they understand the format's weaknesses (running times/side for example) and avoid them.

    I'm pleasantly surprised the LT series continues to see mastering that's practically audiophile-grade, really looking forward to LT58.
    Very cool to know. Thanks!
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    Old 11-23-2021, 03:04 PM   #167
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    Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    Shows were still archived as 16-bit PCMs back in 2000. Those early LTs were mastered very aggressively when first arriving on CD and were begging for a better release sonically which we got from the vinyl releases. But compare the dynamic range from then until now:

    LT02 - DR6
    LT05 - DR6
    LT08 - DR6

    LT55 - DR11
    LT56 - DR11
    LT57 - DR10

    Mastered perfectly for all formats already.

    If you prefer listening to vinyl, as quite a few here do, I have zero doubt these were mastered with loads of dynamics and will sound great on the format because management have demonstrated several times they understand the format's weaknesses (running times/side for example) and avoid them.

    I'm pleasantly surprised the LT series continues to see mastering that's practically audiophile-grade, really looking forward to LT58.

    I am not an expert, but from random reading, I donít think that the dynamic range is directly related to the audio quality.

    Here are the DR values for all DMB albums:

    https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/l...atthews&album=

    Last edited by Xcacel; 11-23-2021 at 03:05 PM.
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    Old 11-23-2021, 03:41 PM   #168
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Xcacel View Post
    I am not an expert, but from random reading, I don’t think that the dynamic range is directly related to the audio quality.

    Here are the DR values for all DMB albums:

    https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/l...atthews&album=
    Love that list! lol

    I uploaded the vast majority of those, which is why the formatting of the LT and DMBLive series is very uniform - I would never claim DR is anything but one facet of overall quality. However, in the vast majority of cases where the vinyl release is mastered separately to a day and date release by the same mastering engineer, the DRC is typically the major, if not the only, difference.

    To that point the Peppers50 vinyl release was the best choice as it was the only one with no peak limiting - Miles Showell confirmed there were zero other differences (eQ etc). The Blu-ray inexplicably had the peak limited 24/96 stereo master on it. By the time they did The Beatles50 they had listened to "our" complaints and the Blu-rays from that point onwards included the unlimited vinyl cutting master and they eased off on the DRC they had used with Peppers (even the surround master was pretty hot).

    Quality has so many factors, as an example for some bit depth and sampling rate is of utmost importance - I would rather have well-mastered 320 Kbps mp3s than aggressively mastered 24/96 FLACs. For me, anything with heavy-handed DRC cannot be considered audiophile.
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    Last edited by dobyblue; 11-23-2021 at 03:43 PM.
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    Old 11-23-2021, 04:23 PM   #169
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dobyblue View Post
    Love that list! lol

    I uploaded the vast majority of those, which is why the formatting of the LT and DMBLive series is very uniform - I would never claim DR is anything but one facet of overall quality. However, in the vast majority of cases where the vinyl release is mastered separately to a day and date release by the same mastering engineer, the DRC is typically the major, if not the only, difference.

    To that point the Peppers50 vinyl release was the best choice as it was the only one with no peak limiting - Miles Showell confirmed there were zero other differences (eQ etc). The Blu-ray inexplicably had the peak limited 24/96 stereo master on it. By the time they did The Beatles50 they had listened to "our" complaints and the Blu-rays from that point onwards included the unlimited vinyl cutting master and they eased off on the DRC they had used with Peppers (even the surround master was pretty hot).

    Quality has so many factors, as an example for some bit depth and sampling rate is of utmost importance - I would rather have well-mastered 320 Kbps mp3s than aggressively mastered 24/96 FLACs. For me, anything with heavy-handed DRC cannot be considered audiophile.

    Thatís quite interesting (at least for me). We are going a bit off topic here, but since you seem to know much, let me ask you a couple of questions:

    ē which program did you use to estimate DR from DMB albums?
    ē if I understood right, it doesnít make too much sense to compare DR from different albums, but instead you can compare the different versions (vinyl vs digital) of the same album. Is that correct?
    ē what is the purpose to apply dynamic compression, for example on the case that you mentioned? Why they do that, and what happened that forced you to complain?
    ē can you explain better what you mean with aggressive mastering?
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    Old 11-25-2021, 09:51 AM   #170
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Week from this getting shipped

    Getting excited
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    Old 11-25-2021, 05:12 PM   #171
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Xcacel View Post
    That’s quite interesting (at least for me). We are going a bit off topic here, but since you seem to know much, let me ask you a couple of questions:

    • which program did you use to estimate DR from DMB albums?
    • if I understood right, it doesn’t make too much sense to compare DR from different albums, but instead you can compare the different versions (vinyl vs digital) of the same album. Is that correct?
    • what is the purpose to apply dynamic compression, for example on the case that you mentioned? Why they do that, and what happened that forced you to complain?
    • can you explain better what you mean with aggressive mastering?
    1) I now exclusively use foobar2000 but way back in the old days it was early incarnations of the TT meter. I don't believe any old albums need to be redone as it is functionality/GUI that has changed, not methodology.

    2) It doesn't make much sense other than to see whether an artist is getting better (DMB Live Trax) or worse (DMB studio) over time. You can compare different versions of the same album for sure. Taking a look at the Rage Against the Machine debut:

    Original release mastered by Bob Ludwig - DR9
    20th anniversary (XX) disgrace by Vlado Meller - DR6
    Audio Fidelity SACD remaster by Steve Hoffman - DR11

    Either the original mastering or the SACD both sound great, the original US vinyl is praised universally and was cut AAA by Bob as the original mix is 1/2" 30 ips tape. The SACD was mastered direct to DSD from said tape. The XX remaster sounds like someone is jamming knifes into your ears. I believe the vinyl could sound better cut over four sides vs two due to the type of material and running time. The SACD is heavenly.

    Vinyl DR scores are, for me, completely useless. Sounds like the next revamp of the DR database will include a suggestion I've made a few times over the years, have a toggle on/off to include vinyl in the results. This measures an exact digital file that will be identical no matter how many times you or I send it to each other and measure it. No two vinyl rips of the same record will be identical even if they have the same DR score. The founder of Dynamic Range Day, mastering engineer Ian Shepherd, explains more here:
    https://productionadvice.co.uk/tt-meter-not-for-vinyl/

    3) For Peppers50 lots of people complained because why on Earth did they have to make it sound so loud? It's The Beatles! We don't need them to sound like Metallica. They didn't master the 2009 stereo releases like that, so why start now? Fortunately they listened. Why do mastering engineers do that? Who knows why it happened? At first, perhaps to stand out more? I remember in 1992 Dirt from Alice in Chains sounded so much louder than all the other CDs we had in regular rotation. Not anymore! And with all the platforms like Spotify, Apple, YouTube, etc., adding their own reductions to avoid blasting the listener, this style of mastering no longer makes sense but continues. Is it the artist? Mastering engineer just doing what they assume will be wanted? Producer? A&R guy? Just stop it already! There is nothing wrong with carefully utilized compression, but it went to silly levels some time around 1995 with Oasis and now we all look back in anger. (Pretty sure that was Vlado Meller who did What's The Story)

    4) Any number of things that compromise the original dynamics of the performance or make things sound strained or almost distorted. The way I relate to it is...hyper compression, brickwalling, clipping, etc., when used egregiously result in you wanting to turn it down over extended listening sessions. Well-mastered material should make you want to turn it up.

    For an example, you can listen to this well known video with one caveat - don't change the volume midway or you lose the effect and thus the point.

    Some other good reading/info:

    Kevin Gray (well known lacquer cutter and mastering enginner, cut Luther College vinyl and the hope was he was going to do BTCS all analogue) - https://web.archive.org/web/20110704...?go=cdloudness

    Greg Reierson from Rare Form Mastering "The Loudness War Is Over" (not yet, sadly) - https://www.mixonline.com/news/loudness-war-over-420885

    Friedemann Tischmeyer (founder of Pleasurize Music and the first TT DR meter) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUcgg2vMX_s

    Bob Ludwig praising Axl for choosing the most dynamic of three separate masterings he prepared for Chinese Democracy - https://web.archive.org/web/20120211...udnessWars.asp

    Hope that helps explain things a little more! Sorry if some bits are jumbled or poor grammar - I broke my right wrist a fortnight ago and typing is laborious.
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    Old 11-26-2021, 10:10 AM   #172
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Gotta love when a big vinyl set goes on sale before full-price pre-orders have even shipped.
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    Old Yesterday, 01:36 AM   #173
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    FYI; There are 574 vinyl copies still available ..
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    Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM   #174
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    How can you tell that? The store limits you to purchasing 10 vinyl.
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    Old Yesterday, 04:12 PM   #175
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RSSR View Post
    How can you tell that? The store limits you to purchasing 10 vinyl.
    When you go to checkout, you can enter a number up to 999.
    It tells you when there is not enough stock.
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    Old Today, 01:10 AM   #176
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by camiel76 View Post
    FYI; There are 574 vinyl copies still available ..
    Interesting. 554 now
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    Old Today, 01:10 AM   #177
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    Re: Live Trax Vol. 58: Deer Creek Theatre - Noblesville, IN - 6/22/2000

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tubaguy1145 View Post
    Gotta love when a big vinyl set goes on sale before full-price pre-orders have even shipped.
    Hate this. I want a refund! Especially after purchasing multiple for gifts.
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