Music vs. Song

[Ardbark]

Here is the deal, majority of people enjoy DMB for the music not the song. The whole success of DMB has been about the music, the energy and the live experience. There are sections of songs that are lyrically strong but that is not what draws people to DMB. So many times I've talked to people and they said I just skip to the jam..... and that's the point. What DMB does well is play music and not write songs. For years I listen to bootlegs and didn't even care what the song was about but knew the jam was amazing. They have an opportunity to create some really good music and create some great music together but I don't think they will ever write a great song. Dylan is a good example of the opposite. His songs are amazing but the music fails in comparison.

I've seen Dylan and the concert was good but the album was better.

I've seen DMB and the album was good but the concert was better.

If they just embrace that for an album, just one, with all musicians contributing to the music they could create a sick album. Sugar Will defines this, Trax vol 2 version.

[Titotimmy]

Seven, sick music bad song

[HonestDenver1]

Originally Posted by Ardbark

Here is the deal, majority of people enjoy DMB for the music not the song. The whole success of DMB has been about the music, the energy and the live experience. There are sections of songs that are lyrically strong but that is not what draws people to DMB. So many times I've talked to people and they said I just skip to the jam..... and that's the point. What DMB does well is play music and not write songs. For years I listen to bootlegs and didn't even care what the song was about but knew the jam was amazing. They have an opportunity to create some really good music and create some great music together but I don't think they will ever write a great song. Dylan is a good example of the opposite. His songs are amazing but the music fails in comparison.

I've seen Dylan and the concert was good but the album was better.

I've seen DMB and the album was good but the concert was better.

If they just embrace that for an album, just one, with all musicians contributing to the music they could create a sick album. Sugar Will defines this, Trax vol 2 version.

That is an interesting opinion. The difference is Dave used to be good at both. The difference is the shows used to vary much more and so did the jams. You could see Jimi Thing in 1999 3 times and it was going to be different each night as opposed to now where it's almost the exact same...

Dave Matthews is considered a songwriter to me and an excellent performer. Many would argue Dylan's live shows are better than his studio albums. Obviously different than your opinion... But people chase Dylan for decades to see unique and interesting performances.. he has bootleg albums that are in the teens, that carry a ton of live performances that people pine for..

Dave Matthews used to write songs like One Sweet World, Crash, Dreaming Tree, Ants Marching.. Poetic and inspirational songs and now just tries to incorporate.. Love is the only thing.. The only thing.. Love baby love baby ya... loveeeeeeeeeee.. And the planet too.. And only wants the songs to be 3 minutes long.

[jaymas9]

Couldn't disagree more. Outside of being an awesome lyricist through Busted Stuff with sprinkles of it post that album, the arrangements of DMB songs are the underlying quality that makes them so unique and compelling. Roi played a huge part in that, but it's essential to songwriting. Just off the top of my head, take a song like Dancing Nancies "look up at the sky chorus." It's so brilliant that doesn't hit after the first verse at all, gets a pre-chorus "sing and dance" after the second verse, and then the pre chorus gets "la, la, la hey, la, la" before it after the third verse." It builds tension, it's surprising, and makes the chorus pay off that much better. Just one of many brilliant examples of writing and arranging songs that Dave and others have brought to the table.

Dave Matthews would not do that today, it's probably the biggest thing missing from their music, and maybe that's because Roi is gone. To me, that is part of what you're calling "song." So no, it's equally, if not more important than how you're describing "music."

I think overall, instrumentation, and melody (vocal and otherwise) are more important to me, but great lyrics elevate things. There also aren't many examples of great lyrics in a bad song.

Doesn't really matter though, songwriting is more than writing lyrics.

[RSSR]

Dave was never that a great lyricist. It's strange to me people hold him to a standard he was never, imo.

[ToySoldier#34]

Skipping to the jam, in other words skipping the parts where Dave is not singing, would not be the reason I listen to DMB personally

[BarkRock]

Originally Posted by RSSR

Dave was never that a great lyricist. It's strange to me people hold him to a standard he was never, imo.

Funny you say that. Growing up in the 90's big Dave fan, always thought he had amazing lyrics. Over time I see that his lyrics are not very good. Maybe it is the fan who also evolved.

Now, i just think he is out of ideas.... Dude wrote a ton of songs and its almost impossible to keep turning out good lyrics unless you outsource.

Side Note: I am a huge DMB fan who has turned into a bigger Nathaniel Rateliff and the Night Sweats fan. That dudes lyrics are crazy and they just dropped a new single and album is due Nov. 5. Check it out.

[dmbdreamingtree]

he was a good lyricist with some great songs lyrically. However, he used to always know how to deliver the lyrics, which made the song creative and flow much better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN9SFQ5hhvw

the delivery of the lyrics in this song make it interesting. however, in today's DMB, he would add a pseudo southern/backwoods accent and smash all of the words together like he does in cornbread (almost like he's trying to rap the song), reducing the lyrics and the song.

he used to write worldly, jazzy, fusion filled, south african, folky music. people say he has changed, and ask others to get over it. but it is more than someone simply changing. it's really odd (to me) the way he has gone from the author of the stone to the author of mercy or cornbread. he almost refuses to utilize the creativity and experimental side of music that made DMB famous and unique. it feels intentional. but alas - his newer songs are better than cornbread and mercy so I am not complaining. Jeff's flute solo on WATM is legit.

[karczews41]

Originally Posted by Ardbark

Here is the deal, majority of people enjoy DMB for the music not the song. The whole success of DMB has been about the music, the energy and the live experience. There are sections of songs that are lyrically strong but that is not what draws people to DMB. So many times I've talked to people and they said I just skip to the jam..... and that's the point. What DMB does well is play music and not write songs. For years I listen to bootlegs and didn't even care what the song was about but knew the jam was amazing. They have an opportunity to create some really good music and create some great music together but I don't think they will ever write a great song. Dylan is a good example of the opposite. His songs are amazing but the music fails in comparison.

I've seen Dylan and the concert was good but the album was better.

I've seen DMB and the album was good but the concert was better.

If they just embrace that for an album, just one, with all musicians contributing to the music they could create a sick album. Sugar Will defines this, Trax vol 2 version.

I could have been on board until this part - it basically undoes everything above it. The jams/performatory part of this band is great, I agree, but that is by definition not the same as studio album music. Good thing is you don't need to worry about what some say are lacking studio efforts from the band as there are thousands of live concerts to pick from. The thread could simply be called "I prefer the band live," super hot take.

[HonestDenver1]

When anyone starts off an opinion with "ok here's the deal".. It's most definitely not "the deal".

[Slackdoodle]

Originally Posted by RSSR

Dave was never that a great lyricist. It's strange to me people hold him to a standard he was never, imo.

On UTTAD and Crash, Dave exhibits a kind of uniquely poetic way of phrasing things, which played off his unusual guitar style. It was an identity and it drew people in.

Starting with BTCS and accelerating from there, Dave began to adopt a more "straightforward" and plain way of phrasing. It usually still fits the melody but lacks a certain creative interplay with the musical element. Often it just sounds like normal talking or rambling.

He still writes some brilliant songs now and then, but I think you could pin the changes on an Americanization of his writing style.

And f***ing Glenn Ballard made it worse, too.

[grilldanmo]

They go hand in hand to me. The music isn't getting listened to if I don't like the song. E.g.: Bayou's opening lick is kinda cool and coulda been part of a great tune...Bayou, however, is NOT that tune, it's tripe.

That said (and as I've stated ad nauseam), the lyrics aren't much of a factor, just the melody lines and how they work w/ the harmonic foundation. Another example: Cornbread is terrible lyrically, but the music is fun as is Dave's approach to the vocals and vocal melody.

Bayou and Cornbread are practically cousins, but I generally enjoy on and other is a total earsore.

[Slackdoodle]

Originally Posted by grilldanmo

They go hand in hand to me. The music isn't getting listened to if I don't like the song. E.g.: Bayou's opening lick is kinda cool and coulda been part of a great tune...Bayou, however, is NOT that tune, it's tripe.

That said (and as I've stated ad nauseam), the lyrics aren't much of a factor, just the melody lines and how they work w/ the harmonic foundation. Another example: Cornbread is terrible lyrically, but the music is fun as is Dave's approach to the vocals and vocal melody.

Bayou and Cornbread are practically cousins, but I generally enjoy on and other is a total earsore.

Well said.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by grilldanmo

They go hand in hand to me. The music isn't getting listened to if I don't like the song. E.g.: Bayou's opening lick is kinda cool and coulda been part of a great tune...Bayou, however, is NOT that tune, it's tripe.

That said (and as I've stated ad nauseam), the lyrics aren't much of a factor, just the melody lines and how they work w/ the harmonic foundation. Another example: Cornbread is terrible lyrically, but the music is fun as is Dave's approach to the vocals and vocal melody.

Bayou and Cornbread are practically cousins, but I generally enjoy on and other is a total earsore.