Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riffs

[Carson31]

Originally Posted by aircavmike

I completely agree w your take Carson, in terms of Flohr and RCA but at some point and especially at that point where the band had achieved huge success they (the band / Matthews) could’ve and should’ve put there foot down and said NO, this is what we have. This is our art. And not caved to that external pressure. Cause again at that time, they were the biggest band going.
And I realize that Matthews self doubt plays a major role. Prob why Leroi told him at some point that he needs to step up and really lead the group.

So myself and Steve Lillywhite definitely agree with this. We both feel strongly that Dave needed to stand up for himself at various points. But, and it's a big butt, Dave Matthews didn't sign with RCA or Capshaw so that he could tell them what to do. He trusted them to do a job. And I think that when you're an artist & not a business nerd, you agree to a deal with the fat cats because you don't want to deal with all of the shit that they'll have deal with. If you're an artist like Dave, I think you allow yourself to be malleable and easily persuaded because these are the people you hired to do a job.

As of today I really don't know if Dave calls his own shots, or if he just thinks he does. The impression I've gotten in the last couple of years is that he does indeed have more say these days, but I have to wonder exactly how much, and if it's more like things are suggested to him and then he agrees, or if he is just straight up calling the shots the last few years. My guess is that he is massaged in certain directions which allows him the illusion of control.

[BigEyedIdiot]

That 2004 time period had some good tracks around it too. Would have been interesting to see an album with:

Joy Ride
Gas Into Fire
Crazy Easy
Hello Again
Scream Into The Grave
Joyride
Good Good Time

[Carson31]

Originally Posted by BigEyedIdiot

I remember hearing at some point that the 2004 sessions were going to be self produced. Was that not the case? I also thought I remembered hearing something about Trey guesting on Sugar Will during those sessions. Of course over the course of 20 years you hear things on here that are junk, but seeing AirCavMike mention 2004 made me remember that. Any insight?

I don't know the answer to that. Those sessions are on my to do list so I'll try to get somewhere with them eventually. I'd guess it wasn't Harris because I think he'd have mentioned it. That's what leads me to think it was Alagia. I think there have been many many many writing sessions with Alagia that are essentially unknown.

I've heard the Trey rumor but I've asked a few people and they have shot it down. I know that Sugar Will was not recorded for Stand Up or by Mark Batson at any point, but no doubt it was recorded with Cavallo and whomever produced/engineered the 2004 sessions. To be fair, I don't even know that any of the "04" songs even originated in 04. It wouldn't surprise me if they had roots dating back several years.

[jaymas9]

It's wild to me that with Alagia, and all the work they've done together for so long, he's only produced RTT and whatever we've got coming our way this year or next year.

[eggsrsweet]

I’m curious if Norlander asks Steve Harris about how Some Devil came about. Because the songs on SD are definitely of a darker nature and it seems like Dave had more creative control and freedom to do what he wanted on there. Like, did Dave want to do the solo album on the condition that he wouldn’t be as directed by the label/management as he would on the DMB albums?

[KevinTH]

Haven't read back, so maybe this has been covered, but I found something of interest. The BAND wasn't feeling the sessions. Carter was not feeling the sessions. Carter was quoted as saying it lacked anything that DMB is about. The BAND gets butt hurt because Lillywhite says "Dave's band"......

So then they go record Everyday. Kind of an ironic outcome, yeah?

[Dodo36]

The Harris interview on tLWS articulated a lot of what I've been failing at saying well. The sessions just seemed laborious, and that infected the experience for the band of those songs. The songs as they leaked, with a few exceptions, were obviously not finished products as far as final mix and overdubs and everything else was concerned. The music was there, but the sound of the rooms and what they were capturing didn't match outside of that space. I really love a lot of those songs. To me it has the superior arrangement for Raven, but the sessions as a whole lack something intangible in their performance. That Karmageddon remaster clips the cymbals way too much and is just hard to listen to IMO.

I haven't had an hour to actually listen to Lillywhite's bit, but from what people are saying there's a lot of supposition happening on the 'weakest link.' Until '05, I would have called the weakest link Fonzi because of how reductive most of his parts were. Since then, he has exploded and not been afraid to actually lay it down. Conversely, around '05 is when I noticed Boyd actually slipping as opposed to an off night here and there and that just snowballed after Roi passed.

[RainDog1980]

Originally Posted by Carson31

1. Lillywhite told me that at some point. I'll see if I can find some public corroboration for it but he's the source on that bit. He told me he thought he was going to be the guy for Big Whiskey and then they went another way. For what it's worth, Batson also thought he'd produce Big Whiskey and he was disappointed when they went with "The Green Day guy." As for LeRoi possibly being the reason that Lillywhite didn't produce Big Whiskey, it's just my opinion (albeit an educated opinion).

He definitely said as much publicly, because I remember him saying they were in talks about it, and he was never notified it wasn’t going to be him, they just announced Cavallo and he was like, “guess it wasn’t me.” I’m really paraphrasing here, but I remember something along those lines happening.

[BigEyedIdiot]

Originally Posted by Carson31

I don't know the answer to that. Those sessions are on my to do list so I'll try to get somewhere with them eventually. I'd guess it wasn't Harris because I think he'd have mentioned it. That's what leads me to think it was Alagia. I think there have been many many many writing sessions with Alagia that are essentially unknown.

I've heard the Trey rumor but I've asked a few people and they have shot it down. I know that Sugar Will was not recorded for Stand Up or by Mark Batson at any point, but no doubt it was recorded with Cavallo and whomever produced/engineered the 2004 sessions. To be fair, I don't even know that any of the "04" songs even originated in 04. It wouldn't surprise me if they had roots dating back several years.

Yep, didn't Joyride originate like in 99?

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by KevinTH

Haven't read back, so maybe this has been covered, but I found something of interest. The BAND wasn't feeling the sessions. Carter was not feeling the sessions. Carter was quoted as saying it lacked anything that DMB is about. The BAND gets butt hurt because Lillywhite says "Dave's band"......

So then they go record Everyday. Kind of an ironic outcome, yeah?

Steve Harris' interview, for me, really shed light on this to me. Definitely not that straightforward. And the "Dave's band" is just a twitter spat between Lillywhite and Stefan from a few years back I think.

[jaymas9]

SL saying there could be a different version of Monkey Man out there is some real enticing stuff. Cause he remembers thinking at one point it was the best thing he's ever heard or something like that.

[NewAgedNerd]

I wonder whatever happened to that Golden Monkey...

[aircavmike]

Originally Posted by BigEyedIdiot

Yep, didn't Joyride originate like in 99?

I believe so…

And would make sense that Joyride among some that went to Some Devil and possibly some 04 songs were around by the time they recorded Busted Stuff cause Matthews says in that Rolling Stone article that they have like 25 songs ready

[maddoc75]

I think it’s funny how upset the band was that it leaked but they were already playing half of the album during the 2000 tour and even more in 2001. Sounds like they never wanted anyone to hear it but kept playing the songs live and people would hear it. I would have loved to hear what Lillywhite could’ve done if he got the chance to finish the album.

[maddoc75]

Also very upset that the label ruined Dave’s confidence in the songs and the label wanted more tripping billies but the songs from tLWS sound like classic DMB and they have always had sadder or more mellow songs on all their albums. Not every song is going to be tripping billies and for the party crowd. There are songs on tLWS that could have been released as upbeat singles(Grey Street, Busted Stuff). Just sucks the label cared more about sales than quality of music and basically sent the band in a completely different direction. Also from the interview it sounds like they really made a mistake picking that place for a studio and staying in cville. Loved how they went back to the plant for BS tho, kinda like they realized they screwed up. I also agree I would’ve liked to hear Dave defend his songs as tLWS is truly amazing.

[dreamingtree_34]

Originally Posted by Carson31

It would be easy for me to say " I don't know" and agree with your points but that's not the answer you want. So, my opinion is that perhaps people like Bruce Flohr (whom may or may not even have much say in things anymore) might be more apt to encourage Dave to keep looking through old tracks, keep writing, in order to find that "where are you going" type of hit. I think ego probably plays a huge role for all parties and I'm sure someone wants a hit. I think that if they were interested in shitting out commercially unsuccessful records they'd do it more often. I think there might be hesitancy after records like Come Tomorrow & AFTW didn't have the success that Big Whiskey did. But I don't know if RCA or Flohr still weigh heavily on decisions at all, it's just that I tend to think there is more to it than Dave apparently wanting to perfect something. It might be more important for Dave to believe it's his choice to improve his next album than for that to be the truth.

So, might Dave want to keep recording in hopes of finding another hit? Perhaps. Or perhaps he was encouraged to do so? Or, maybe he was politely told that he needed to add something more to the record before a label was excited about distributing it? Maybe. I think it would be tough to get very direct answers on those kinds of questions, so I cannot say for certain.

If I'm paying to distribute the new album, paying to promote it, paying for it to have the level of success that I want it to have, I'm not concerned with the fans who will buy my record no matter what. I'm concerned with the random people that I can rope in with a radio/viral hits. So I need those hits, simple as that.

As for the Ballard question, I think that if you asked Glen Ballard if he was asked to produce the follow up to Everyday he would say yes. And he'd probably say that he decided that it was best not too, because he knew how much the fans disliked him. I'm not sure if he'd go on record with those answers. I'd also guess that he didn't like the negative attention he got from the Lillywhite leak fallout. And I'm definitely not sure what Flohr would say, though he would know exactly who he considered and in what order. My guess is that Harris wasn't the first choice.

I've had this feeling that is just has to do with quality of the material- considering the new songs that debuted last year. Objectively, the quality is not there for any one of them to make any kind of noise. And this would be strike three for a nothingburger record--I can see why they want to feel stronger about it. If casual fans won't hear it, who is it really for? I think it's clear Dave's late 2020 enthusiastic quotes around the sessions were in a writing high-- time and road testing have revealed that haul to be nothing special.

[nyr201]

T Bone Burnett?! Him working with DMB never crossed my mind before yet now it's the only thing I will ever want to listen to. If only!

[JboDaveGuyYNK]

Originally Posted by dreamingtree_34

I've had this feeling that is just has to do with quality of the material- considering the new songs that debuted last year. Objectively, the quality is not there for any one of them to make any kind of noise. And this would be strike three for a nothingburger record--I can see why they want to feel stronger about it. If casual fans won't hear it, who is it really for? I think it's clear Dave's late 2020 enthusiastic quotes around the sessions were in a writing high-- time and road testing have revealed that haul to be nothing special.

Agree with them wanting to feel stronger about this one but I'm not sure about the bolded.

I understand virtually nobody wants a STTMB e1 but it seems as if the overall reception of the new tunes has been well received.

From a casual fan perspective, it's an interesting point- the only shows I've been to since the new haul was Denver last year (weren't played) and N2&N3 Gorge (only caught butterfly, but I believe it's difficult to get a "casual fan" count from the Gorge anyways) I guess I'll have to wait to see the casual reaction at Denver this year. Personally, WATM, MME, and TOT rip.

[Carson31]

Originally Posted by RainDog1980

He definitely said as much publicly, because I remember him saying they were in talks about it, and he was never notified it wasn’t going to be him, they just announced Cavallo and he was like, “guess it wasn’t me.” I’m really paraphrasing here, but I remember something along those lines happening.

Thank you. I'm positive he said it publicly so I appreciate that someone else remembers. If we both remember, someone will eventually find the interview/podcast wherever he said it.

Originally Posted by dreamingtree_34

I've had this feeling that is just has to do with quality of the material- considering the new songs that debuted last year. Objectively, the quality is not there for any one of them to make any kind of noise. And this would be strike three for a nothingburger record--I can see why they want to feel stronger about it. If casual fans won't hear it, who is it really for? I think it's clear Dave's late 2020 enthusiastic quotes around the sessions were in a writing high-- time and road testing have revealed that haul to be nothing special.

That's more or less how I feel. If anyone was really that excited about the album we'd have heard it a year ago. My guess is that whatever comes out eventually will only slightly resemble whatever Dave was so excited about in late 2020. If it really his decision, fine I guess. But knowing how this stuff works leads me to believe that at some point it was suggested/decided/required to record more, mix more, look again to old sessions, record more, mix more etc etc. I know some of you have heard that the band wants the album to be cohesive, and that may very well be the end result, but I will use the word that I've heard used to describe the album by someone working on it: piecemeal.

Originally Posted by aircavmike

When do the other 10 or so songs from that time period leak? ��

Can't help but wonder what else is out there. I don't know what tracks it'll be, but there will be more DMB leaks in the future. Too many random people have this or that for there not to be more significant leaks. Instead of fretting over past leaks, perhaps they should consider themselves lucky that they haven't had more leaks?

[ElijahSoRight72]

Originally Posted by Carson31

That's more or less how I feel. If anyone was really that excited about the album we'd have heard it a year ago. My guess is that whatever comes out eventually will only slightly resemble whatever Dave was so excited about in late 2020. If it really his decision, fine I guess. But knowing how this stuff works leads me to believe that at some point it was suggested/decided/required to record more, mix more, look again to old sessions, record more, mix more etc etc. I know some of you have heard that the band wants the album to be cohesive, and that may very well be the end result, but I will use the word that I've heard used to describe the album by someone working on it: piecemeal.

Your sentiments are exactly mine. Once we knew we wouldn't have it by Fall 2021, I knew it had been too much time to believe the single session would see the light of day. Piecemeal doesn't have to be bad. Does the person working on the album at least... think it's good...?

Originally Posted by Carson31

Can't help but wonder what else is out there. I don't know what tracks it'll be, but there will be more DMB leaks in the future. Too many random people have this or that for there not to be more significant leaks. Instead of fretting over past leaks, perhaps they should consider themselves lucky that they haven't had more leaks?

The Batson Sessions leaked once CT came out, and I could be wrong but that doesn't seem like a coincidence. Maybe if the band ever revisited a Cavallo Sessions song or two for a new album, we'd get a drop.

[dmbongreyst]

Originally Posted by Carson31

Too many random people have this or that for there not to be more significant leaks. Instead of fretting over past leaks, perhaps they should consider themselves lucky that they haven't had more leaks?

What I don’t get with this band is why they don’t release the stuff they have no intention of returning to. That would allow them to get ahead of leaks, keep the fans happy, and make money. Seems like a win all around.

I would gladly pay for the occasional EP release every couple of years instead of the constant talk of working on albums that never happen or drastically change from what was expected. The Batson Sessions leak showed us that they have completely formed songs just sitting on the shelf. Drive Me Away should have been released at some point by now.

[jaymas9]

It will be wildly disappointing to end up with a piecemeal new album instead of one that produces songs from the same sessions, when they could have just released the thing.

[Carson31]

Originally Posted by dmbongreyst

What I don’t get with this band is why they don’t release the stuff they have no intention of returning to. That would allow them to get ahead of leaks, keep the fans happy, and make money. Seems like a win all around.

I would gladly pay for the occasional EP release every couple of years instead of the constant talk of working on albums that never happen or drastically change from what was expected. The Batson Sessions leak showed us that they have completely formed songs just sitting on the shelf. Drive Me Away should have been released at some point by now.

Regular EP type releases would be cool. Or perhaps just random singles here and there like Eh Hee. I think they're kinda askin' for it if they don't do more stuff like that. I would never have anything to do with it, I'm actually on their side with the leak stuff. I'd prefer they release on the band's/dave's terms generally speaking. "They" being the business side. But maybe if they were more concerned, or knew that they were really up against it, maybe we'd see a little more action? Or, if they really need to have Dave's say so with vault stuff, then someone should make it very clear to Dave what will continue to happen if the band isn't more proactive. I'm just being honest. If I was Dave, and I found out that there was something my managers & reps could have done to prevent a leak, and instead of doing anything they pissed on their hands, I'd be upset.

Leaning back towards the podcast discussions... Hearing Lillywhite & Harris talk about this stuff, you wouldn't think it happened 20+ years ago. Some stuff seems fuzzy but it also seems fresh in a way. Maybe it's because no one ever really got to the bottom of it. Lillywhite's recollection about being upset over there being a gun in the studio was another bit that I didn't know. But it's very easy for me to imagine the scenario playing out where Lillywhite voiced his displeasure and it went over poorly. It's easy for me to imagine that having happened many times over the years to the point of the band finally having enough. Maybe Flohr didn't really need to do a whole lot of convincing to certain band members to move on? Maybe he brought his credit card in and told a member of the band that they could go record in LA at a fancy studio in a few months, instead of at home where wives/girlfriends/family are close by? Maybe Flohr could have used an incident like the one involving the gun to his advantage? Maybe he started with one member who's opinion was then used as leverage over the other members of the band, and then ultimately Dave? Who want's to bet he talked to Dave last? To borrow a phrase from Lillywhite, I'm just riffing. It's cool that there are still people that care and that still want some resolution so it's fun to see the discussion the podcast has brought about. Hopefully it leads to something good. I would guess that a band member or 3 probably did listen, so for Lillywhite to be gracious at the end was a good thing.

[bibby1044]

The biggest takeaway from this for me is for years we talk about Steve being a perfectionist overdoing takes on tLWS driving the band to scrap the sessions only to find out the band didn’t want to say their hometown studio sucked and forced them to need that many takes.


Carson, thank you for all that. Love reading on these things. Seeing all you said on the influence of the label for dmb in their history really makes me scratch my head with “idea of you” and how that song wasn’t forced out in 06-09 in some way given the success it had with casual fans.

Lastly, I hate hearing the peicemeal comment on the new album. I really hope they Atleast re-record everything in the same session at a minimum. I’d argue about “quality” given I think MME and WATM are two of the most solid songs weve heard out of them in quite sometime. TOT with the 2022 changes has grown on me and I find myself having it stuck in my head often and this after not being a fan of it originally. As Jay said I wish they just released the original sessions but these comments make me wonder after the 3 songs I mentioned if the quality drastically dropped off. This is very demoralizing to hear after all the talk of this version of the band vibing with buddy and lighting a spark under them. I thought those 3 new songs in addition to how they fixed many other songs ex, grey street and version of sweet(jam), break for it, etc with buddy, Tim and Jeff doing work was all good signs. Guess not ��*♂️��*♂️��*♂️

[ScottCavBBQ]

Ill throw a take out there on all of this as a whole. dave is a songwriter and a performer, his joy comes from performing his material. i think all these years of consistant touring proves that his ultimate joy being in this business is just getting out there and making music with his pals and performing it for us fans. i dont think dave matthews is the type of artist who is sitting around during his time off listening to his studio releases. studio albums are really for fans to sit around listening to and for a record label to make money. in the beginning when you are trying to "break" your band and its all new and exciting, the studio and making a great record is of the utmost importance. not only to the band but to the label that signed you. alot is hinging on a solid album, song quality and recording quality. but once you have reached a certain level in your career, for somebody like dave matthews, how important to him personally is it to have this masterpeice of a recording? he has accomplished everything he could have ever wanted to accomplish and has more money than he knows what to do with, still has a loyal following that drives his summer tours. at this point, the only people that a really solid and successful album is benefitting is a label that only cares about making money. at some point in all of this, i believe the time and effort it takes when making a record and all that goes into it definitely doesnt rate very high up on his list of things to do when he is not playing shows. fans still get new music, but its on the road and on recordings that they allow the fans to capture, and on releases the band puts out. so he probably doesnt feel like hes cheating the fans out of anything. all these so called scrapped studio sessions we hear about, are they really scrapped? or is it just that dave as the musician is perfectly content with just recording something well enough that the basic premise is on tape, he can register it with the publisher so nobody can steal his ideas, it doesnt take very long to do and he can wash his hands of it. then whatever these songs are gonna turn into will happen at the show, or some he just puts the idea down and moves on from it and it never sees the light of day in a live setting. cause who benefits the most at this point from these recordings. the label does. i think some devil is a fantastic album and he was excited to make that record because it was something that was his. his name, not the band, his record, so he gave it the energy. i dont know his contract but if he has to make records as part of a contract i can see him saying okay, putting in a block of time, and if he gets any negative or push back about what hes doing from a label, he just loses interest and it dies. kinda like, okay you guys wanted an album, here it is, oh you dont like this or that, you need a single...well just screw it i tried. i mean hes not starving at this point. he isnt sitting there at home craving a dave matthews record that is perfect and mixed amazing and has overdubs and took fifty takes. i just dont think he cares anymore about that. big whiskey he might have felt he owed it to roi to get those last recordings out there in a good sounding way but everything that has happened since btcs with the exception of big whiskey and his solo record just kinda proves making quality studio records just isnt his focus. just get the new ideas down to copyright and move forward. just my take on all of this. that warehouse disc he did with carter i think is totally up his alley. one day, not alot of effort, record it, and if the label likes it put it out, if not then fuck it. i think all this new material is the same way. hey record label, here it is, i tried to put some time into recording this stuff for you the way you want it. you dont like it or need a single? well fuck it i tried, sorry you dont like it, but i have no interest in spending my off time tweeking this for you. at some point its gotta become more like a business to him then just writing music and he just doesnt care or need to care about the business end of it any longer. hes rich. i think thats the easy explanation that makes the most sense in trying to understand the last 20 years.

[ericvol]

Carson, what do you make of Norlander and Lillywhites comments on the album coming out in a few months? Think that’s just random fodder or backed with reasonable certainty? Aug/September release would make sense with the break in tour then Hollywood Bowl and late enough to have a late year arena tour to fully support the album.

But my thoughts is if that is the plan we probably need an announcement in next 4 weeks?

[Carson31]

Originally Posted by ericvol

Carson, what do you make of Norlander and Lillywhites comments on the album coming out in a few months? Think that’s just random fodder or backed with reasonable certainty? Aug/September release would make sense with the break in tour then Hollywood Bowl and late enough to have a late year arena tour to fully support the album.

But my thoughts is if that is the plan we probably need an announcement in next 4 weeks?

September seems reasonable to me but I haven't heard anything specific. I would guess that Norlander has a feel for when his interview is going to be released so his estimate is probably better than the average guess. Let's hope he's right.

[btpeters]

The enter button is a really great resource.

I use it pretty frequently.

It can make incoherent tangents a little more coherent.

[firedancer34]

this thread is jogging some memories for me. all of this was rumor at the time, but carsons post about dave/the band being managed and not having control made me think about it and maybe he has some details.

it was around the some devil/2004 sessions but there were rumors about their rca contract being up and fulfilling what was left on the contract. at that time the rumors were one fulfillment was a solo album and another was a greatest hits album, and there was speculation then that once they wrapped that stuff up they were gonna switch labels. the post about being managed made me think of this and maybe that was some of the cause of these rumors. was any of that true or did it have any weight to it? if so what made them resign with them?

[Scootlebug]

Originally Posted by Carson31

September seems reasonable to me but I haven't heard anything specific. I would guess that Norlander has a feel for when his interview is going to be released so his estimate is probably better than the average guess. Let's hope he's right.

Sept/Oct is what I was told a month ago.