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Old 06-08-2022, 12:36 AM   #1
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Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riffs

Matt Norlander's essential dmb catalog podcast(s) continues with Part 2 (of 3) of
The Lillywhite Sessions
previous:
tLWS, with Steve Harris Part one (epi. 23)
Before These Crowded Streets (Part 1, epi. 16) (Part 2, epi. 17)
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Old 06-08-2022, 02:50 AM   #2
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

Great interview, but I’m mad you’ve given me hope for Monkey Man
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:39 AM   #3
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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Great interview, but I’m mad you’ve given me hope for Monkey Man
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"Monkey Man could have been great. I've got a feeling we did another version of Monkey Man or there was something else about Monkey Man because I remember thinking at certain times that Monkey Man was one of the greatest things I've ever done" -Sillywhite [@ approx. 00h : 35m :00s]
tLWS exhibits some of LeRoi's best studio work, imho (MM outro taking precedent)

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Old 06-08-2022, 09:52 AM   #4
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

Good stuff here.
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Old 06-08-2022, 10:04 AM   #5
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

Wow, what a great podcast. Looking forward to pt 3 (Busted Stuff)
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:29 AM   #6
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

This podcast is the best DMB-related item we will likely get in 2022. Awesome
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Old 06-08-2022, 11:59 AM   #7
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

This is a treat.

I was really coming into DMB fandom in 2000-2001. Even as a casual fan, I was immediately underwhelmed with Everyday. I remember downloading LS before a family trip, and on the 4 hour car ride just playing it on repeat. To my ears, Bartender was the best thing they'd ever done (maybe it still is). Sweet Up and Down and the JTR jam were earworms.

DMB will always be one of my favorites, but their legacy could have been even richer. LS would have made 4 dynamite studio albums in a row, but instead we've seen 20+ years of haphazard albums never capturing just how good they are. If scrapping this album ultimately gave the band another lease on life, then it was worth it. But, this whole affair was the first major blunder for a band that was batting 1.000 up to that point.
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Old 06-08-2022, 01:28 PM   #8
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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This is a treat.

I was really coming into DMB fandom in 2000-2001. Even as a casual fan, I was immediately underwhelmed with Everyday. I remember downloading LS before a family trip, and on the 4 hour car ride just playing it on repeat. To my ears, Bartender was the best thing they'd ever done (maybe it still is). Sweet Up and Down and the JTR jam were earworms.

DMB will always be one of my favorites, but their legacy could have been even richer. LS would have made 4 dynamite studio albums in a row, but instead we've seen 20+ years of haphazard albums never capturing just how good they are. If scrapping this album ultimately gave the band another lease on life, then it was worth it. But, this whole affair was the first major blunder for a band that was batting 1.000 up to that point.

I completely agree. I had become a fan in 99 really, so getting the Lillywhites/Everyday was my first go round in hearing about a new album and wanting to get it. In those days there was wayyyy more excitement about a band coming out with an album than current times. It was like, stay up all night wait in line outside the record store excitement.

Everyday was just so different. I was very disappointed when it came out especially after seeing those LWS songs on the road in 2000 and having tapes of them. Once I heard LWS in full form, I couldn't believe ED is what we ended up with. Looking back, ED has stood up really well. Surprisingly well. But it was the wrong record for that time. If LWS came out first in September of 2000 as planned. And we got Everyday in 2002, I think people would have accepted the band was making a turn after 4 incredible albums. It was just knowing what we COULD have had, that made Everyday so drastically difficult.

Had the band released LWS, been able to finish it the way they originally intended, I think it's their best album by far. I also think it would have helped establish them as a more "credible" band in music history as opposed to the labels that got out on them post 2000. Jam band, pop band, they never really fit in with the greats when you discuss them with other music fans of Grateful Dead, Rolling Stones, some of the 90's grunge bands like Soundgarden or PJ. They kind of lost that raw honest credible with everyday and never recovered.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:19 PM   #9
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

This interview really surprised me. The level to which he's still bitter about all of this after 20 years is really interesting, especially for one of the most accomplished record producers ever.

It's almost shocking to me that he could sound SO bitter about not being allowed to finish (saying "they lost their nerve") and not getting thanked on Busted Stuff (which he seems really legit pissed about still), and yet still have worked with them on AFTW. There sounds like some serious loose ends there.

Also, he calls Boyd a "non-musician musician" and later refers to working with the "weakest link" in the band, but it's a little uncertain as to whether he's referring to Boyd or Stefan.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:22 PM   #10
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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and later refers to working with the "weakest link" in the band, but it's a little uncertain as to whether he's referring to Boyd or Stefan.
is it, though?
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:27 PM   #11
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is it, though?
Yeah, at least to me (and a friend of mine who also listened) it's unclear. He talks about working with Boyd to help him find his way on albums, but it's not until a good 10+ or so min. later that he mentions working with the "weakest link".

By then, Boyd hasn't been mentioned in quite a while. When he does say that, it's amid the conversation about the beef he and Stefan had over introducing them as "Dave's band." So it seems unclear as to whether he's referring back several minutes to working with Boyd or whether he is referring to Stefan, who he was most recently speaking about.

It does seem likely he's talking about Boyd, mostly because we know he's the weak link in the band -- but when Lillywhite says it he's a little pissed off and he had just been talking about his issue with Stefan.

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Old 06-08-2022, 07:38 PM   #12
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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Yeah, at least to me (and a friend of mine who also listened) it's unclear. He talks about working with Boyd to help him find his way on albums, but it's not until a good 10+ or so min. later that he mentions working with the "weakest link".

By then, Boyd hasn't been mentioned in quite a while. When he does say that, it's amid the conversation about the beef he and Stefan had over introducing them as "Dave's band." So it seems unclear as to whether he's referring back several minutes to working with Boyd or whether he is referring to Stefan, who he was most recently speaking about.

It does seem likely he's talking about Boyd, mostly because we know he's the weak link in the band -- but when Lillywhite says it he's a little pissed off and he had just been talking about his issue with Stefan.

Just came to say that there is not even a remote possibility imo that he was talking about Stefan. I also don’t think being a weak link doesn’t have anything to do with Stefan being annoyed that he said “Dave’s band.”
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:25 PM   #13
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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This interview really surprised me. The level to which he's still bitter about all of this after 20 years is really interesting, especially for one of the most accomplished record producers ever.

It's almost shocking to me that he could sound SO bitter about not being allowed to finish (saying "they lost their nerve") and not getting thanked on Busted Stuff (which he seems really legit pissed about still), and yet still have worked with them on AFTW. There sounds like some serious loose ends there.

Also, he calls Boyd a "non-musician musician" and later refers to working with the "weakest link" in the band, but it's a little uncertain as to whether he's referring to Boyd or Stefan.
I haven't listened yet but there is no way he could be referring to Stefan.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:32 PM   #14
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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I haven't listened yet but there is no way he could be referring to Stefan.
He doesn’t even mention Stefan once if I remember correctly. Briefly talks about Dave, Carter, Roi, Boyd. No Stefan.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:38 PM   #15
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He doesn’t even mention Stefan once if I remember correctly. Briefly talks about Dave, Carter, Roi, Boyd. No Stefan.
I'm not sure what you mean. The argument and Stefan are mentioned directly prior to the 'weakest link' comment. Turn to 49:25.

It's the interviewer mentioning Stefan that sparks Lillywhite to remember the "Dave's band" incident.

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Old 06-09-2022, 08:47 AM   #16
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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He doesn’t even mention Stefan once if I remember correctly. Briefly talks about Dave, Carter, Roi, Boyd. No Stefan.
Not per se (re: studio output); Unless referring to, when working with, 'weakest link' or [Dave said he] '...could go solo, do without all the griping...' during Crash sessions?
Norlander touches on Sillywhite/Stefan's (mostly redacted, May 2020) twitter fye. Lillywhite directly addresses transaction and Stefan's primary gripe: Calling 'us Dave's band' in 1999.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:44 PM   #17
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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This interview really surprised me. The level to which he's still bitter about all of this after 20 years is really interesting, especially for one of the most accomplished record producers ever.

It's almost shocking to me that he could sound SO bitter about not being allowed to finish (saying "they lost their nerve") and not getting thanked on Busted Stuff (which he seems really legit pissed about still), and yet still have worked with them on AFTW. There sounds like some serious loose ends there.

Also, he calls Boyd a "non-musician musician" and later refers to working with the "weakest link" in the band, but it's a little uncertain as to whether he's referring to Boyd or Stefan.
I think his personality is just that. Contentious. I think he's one of those people that thrive on tension. He might think it gets the most creativity out of band. Ever had a boss or coach who liked to push your buttons to try and "motivate" you? Him being bitter shows that there is bad blood between him and the band, or perhaps the band just wanting to get away from his negativity. He seems like a rough pompous guy, for good reason. He helped make some of the best albums in history.. I don't blame him for having an ego at all.

I think they made amends pre AFTW and really wanted to give the fans an old school sounding album. I remember Dave at some point during this time wanting to release a "live not live" album. I think that might have been the point of getting lillywhite back. To breathe some fresh air into songs like Granny for a studio recording. But per usual, the band or Dave then wanted to put out "new" songs.

Based on the interviews Dave has given about AFTW, how it "got away" from him. The endless tweaking of it seemed to be a problem. It's unclear if the tweaking was Lillywhite or someone else. If it was Lillywhite, it makes sense that Dave wasn't happy with the final result and blames Lillywhite. If it was someone else, perhaps it's Lillywhite who is upset that they once again took his work and let someone else remix it. Either of these scenarios could reopen old wounds. And let Dave and the band finally cut ties with Lillywhite. I don't think they've been on good terms since the release of AFTW.

TBH, they release that album and CT over 10 years. I think Lillywhite is just scratching his head wondering why a band and a songwriter with so much talent just stopped recording and making records.
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Old 06-08-2022, 02:13 PM   #18
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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Based on the interviews Dave has given about AFTW, how it "got away" from him. The endless tweaking of it seemed to be a problem. It's unclear if the tweaking was Lillywhite or someone else. If it was Lillywhite, it makes sense that Dave wasn't happy with the final result and blames Lillywhite. If it was someone else, perhaps it's Lillywhite who is upset that they once again took his work and let someone else remix it. Either of these scenarios could reopen old wounds. And let Dave and the band finally cut ties with Lillywhite. I don't think they've been on good terms since the release of AFTW.
It definitely was not Lillywhite. In 2018, Lillywhite directly addressed the tweaking/meddling on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sillywhite/statu...50657189736449

"it was tampered with after i finished my version. Dave was happy, but was convinced by others that someone else must remix some songs."

Apparently, Snow Outside, Sweet and Belly Full were his only mixes that made the album.
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Old 06-08-2022, 02:16 PM   #19
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It definitely was not Lillywhite. In 2018, Lillywhite directly addressed the tweaking/meddling on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sillywhite/statu...50657189736449

"it was tampered with after i finished my version. Dave was happy, but was convinced by others that someone else must remix some songs."

Apparently, Snow Outside, Sweet and Belly Full were his only mixes that made the album.
Ahhhhh. I forgot that part of that interview. Thanks for clarifying. I do wonder who this "someone" else is then. Nameless on both accounts from Dave and Lillywhite. The album sounded like garbage so whoever remixed it should not have that job. I wonder if it was like "someones" nephew new to the industry and trying to make a name for themselves on a big record.
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Old 06-08-2022, 12:55 PM   #20
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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This interview really surprised me. The level to which he's still bitter about all of this after 20 years is really interesting, especially for one of the most accomplished record producers ever.

It's almost shocking to me that he could sound SO bitter about not being allowed to finish (saying "they lost their nerve") and not getting thanked on Busted Stuff (which he seems really legit pissed about still), and yet still have worked with them on AFTW. There sounds like some serious loose ends there.

Also, he calls Boyd a "non-musician musician" and later refers to working with the "weakest link" in the band, but it's a little uncertain as to whether he's referring to Boyd or Stefan.
hes talking about boyd as he said the same in the btcs interview. and hes not wrong. hes the only producer that got anything out of him. boyd essentially absent on the non lillywhite albums.
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Old 06-08-2022, 01:05 PM   #21
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hes talking about boyd as he said the same in the btcs interview. and hes not wrong. hes the only producer that got anything out of him. boyd essentially absent on the non lillywhite albums.
But is that due to Boyd just not physically being there? He's basically on 2 tracks on Big Whiskey due to making the Crystal movie and grieving LeRoi. He's on AFTW more than that, but that was his last go round in the studio. 2 albums is not an indicator of other producers not being able to work with him.

He's on Stand Up quite a bit. They built American Baby off the beginning riff that he created. He's on Old Dirt Hill, Dream Girl, ABI, Stand Up, Bayou, YMDT, He is ALL over that album. So I don't buy Lillywhite is the only one that could make him work.

I think Boyd just wanted out after Roi passed away. He was noticeably different in 2009 on. Body language was all different on stage. Not engaged with the rest of the band until he soloed. I think he stayed for the $$ and partially the fans. It's probably hard to leave something that big. AFTW came around, he gave it another shot with Lillywhite, but went back to the old fiddle and I think the band hated it. It's tough to mix with an electric guitar, and though it sounds better in the studio, it's a not a good sound in the modern day DMB live.

Everyone wants to keep looking for reasons that Boyd sucked from Day 1. He didn't. If he did this band would have had a new fiddle player in the mid 90's when they hit it big. Everyone loved boyd until the last decade.

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Old 06-08-2022, 01:12 PM   #22
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

Boyd is also prominent on Busted Stuff without the help of Lillywhite editing him in. I am sure Harris did some of that, but what producer isn't editing in good takes?
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Old 06-08-2022, 01:13 PM   #23
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Everyone wants to keep looking for reasons that Boyd sucked from Day 1. He didn't. If he did this band would have had a new fiddle player in the mid 90's when they hit it big. Everyone loved boyd until the last decade.
I think you're taking this too far in the other direction. Boyd was a showman -- and was absolutely integral to their becoming famous and becoming as big as they did. The sound of the violin made them standout even more than having a sax did, and his showmanship was a draw in and of itself. DMB doesn't become DMB without Boyd. Fans ate up everything he did for the first decade of the band's existence, and rightfully so.

But Boyd fell so drastically behind the rest of the band musically post 2000 or so that it began to show regularly -- and we've all heard it in countless live recordings. I would never believe Boyd ever 'wanted out'. Roi's death affected everyone. He'd still be there had the band not removed him due to both his falling behind musically and the harassment allegations.

There are times I definitely miss the violin (Satellite, Crush, Ants, etc.) but he doesn't fit in the band anymore because they've moved beyond him musically.

(And of course like every other thread here, a totally unrelated topic turns into a debate about Boyd )

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Old 06-08-2022, 01:18 PM   #24
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I think you're taking this too far in the other direction. Boyd was a showman -- and was absolutely integral to their becoming famous and becoming as big as they did. The sound of the violin made them standout even more than having a sax did, and his showmanship was a draw in and of itself. DMB doesn't become DMB without Boyd. Fans ate up everything he did for the first decade of the band's existence, and rightfully so.

But Boyd fell so drastically behind the rest of the band musically post 2000 or so that it began to show regularly -- and we've all heard it in countless live recordings. I would never believe Boyd ever 'wanted out'. Roi's death affected everyone. He'd still be there had the band not removed him due to both his falling behind musically and the harassment allegations.

There are times I definitely miss the violin (Satellite, Crush, Ants, etc.) but he doesn't fit in the band anymore because they've moved beyond him musically.
I 100% believe his heart was not into it anymore for years. He was lying to himself and it was obvious. Drugs or whatever else was going on with him, he was a shell of himself from 2011 on. And I'm a huge fan of his. I think he played his heart out when it was his turn to solo. But he quit trying to weave in all those awesome underlying parts he used to do in the 90's/2000's. Basically would just jump up for a jam on his parts and then sit in the dark smoking the rest of the show.

I am not taking it too far as this board jumps on every chance they get to point out that he sucked and always did. That's only been prevalent for the last 2 years or so. It's just a bandwagon punching bag since he's easy to pick on. I
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Old 06-08-2022, 01:21 PM   #25
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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I think you're taking this too far in the other direction. Boyd was a showman -- and was absolutely integral to their becoming famous and becoming as big as they did. The sound of the violin made them standout even more than having a sax did, and his showmanship was a draw in and of itself. DMB doesn't become DMB without Boyd. Fans ate up everything he did for the first decade of the band's existence, and rightfully so.

But Boyd fell so drastically behind the rest of the band musically post 2000 or so that it began to show regularly -- and we've all heard it in countless live recordings. I would never believe Boyd ever 'wanted out'. Roi's death affected everyone. He'd still be there had the band not removed him due to both his falling behind musically and the harassment allegations.

There are times I definitely miss the violin (Satellite, Crush, Ants, etc.) but he doesn't fit in the band anymore because they've moved beyond him musically.

(And of course like every other thread here, a totally unrelated topic turns into a debate about Boyd )

it's not a totally unrelated topic. We're discussing his ability to make records in relation to the Lillywhite interview. It's not off topic at all. Everyone on these boards wants to call out everyone else for not sticking strictly to the "swim lane' of the thread. It's just an in depth portion of what Lillywhite brought up. I don't think it's taking it way off track by any means. Boyd was a huge issue for Lillywhite obviously in just the way he discusses how he had to work with him to make the albums what they are. I don't think discussing Boyd's overall musicianship is off kilter here.
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Old 06-08-2022, 01:54 PM   #26
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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This interview really surprised me. The level to which he's still bitter about all of this after 20 years is really interesting, especially for one of the most accomplished record producers ever.

It's almost shocking to me that he could sound SO bitter about not being allowed to finish (saying "they lost their nerve") and not getting thanked on Busted Stuff (which he seems really legit pissed about still), and yet still have worked with them on AFTW. There sounds like some serious loose ends there.

Also, he calls Boyd a "non-musician musician" and later refers to working with the "weakest link" in the band, but it's a little uncertain as to whether he's referring to Boyd or Stefan.
The best at anything take losing extremely hard from MJ to Tom Brady. MJ is still bitter about things as seen in the last dance. Brady still after all the titles yells and screams at refs and his teammates like he is fighting for his 1st super bowl.

I think what stings about this whole situation for Lillywhite is the compounding factors of this band having a crappy studio and then making bad decisions to record in their hometown and remove Tim completely and then ultimately not let lilywhite a decent time to try to mix the records and potentially have a second session and then after all that the band made a pop album (which now i really like and love it with the current band).

They then after everything that happened with the leak and the ballard ED album go and take the songs Lillywhite was working on in 2000 with the band and made new versions and gave no credit for the foundational work in the 2000's LWS.

As a legendary producer this was the one album that literally got away from him and he couldn't even finish it. It would have even been better if lillywhite was able to come back in 2002 to finish it and the album flopped or got a Stand Up reaction from the fanbase.

I didn't start listening to DMB until around 2005 but as I caught up on the history of tLWS I always blamed the band more than I blamed lillywhite because they decided to scrap the sessions and they hid what I believe are some awesome raw songs that should have been released. Hearing the horror stories from Steve Lillywhite only confirms how this band can make some bad decisions without someone with power and guts like lillywhite being able to have their say.
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Old 06-08-2022, 02:24 PM   #27
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

Loved the interview, Lillywhite is quick to blame people and make excuses for other things
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Old 06-08-2022, 02:35 PM   #28
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34 View Post
Loved the interview, Lillywhite is quick to blame people and make excuses for other things
I heard the opposite, I feel like he took the blame for most of what happened but did get pissed he wasn't in the liner notes.
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Old 06-08-2022, 02:37 PM   #29
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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Originally Posted by dmbclstj2 View Post
I heard the opposite, I feel like he took the blame for most of what happened but did get pissed he wasn't in the liner notes.

The excuses he was making for the mistake of referring to them as Dave's band came across pretty awkwardly in my opinion
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Old 06-09-2022, 11:28 AM   #30
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Re: Podcast: The Lillywhite Sessions, with Steve Lillywhite (Part 2) - Records & Riff

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Originally Posted by ToySoldier#34 View Post
The excuses he was making for the mistake of referring to them as Dave's band came across pretty awkwardly in my opinion
In fairness he flat out says he is an awkward guy and says/does awkward things under pressure. Which, I can 100% relate lol. I thought he fully owned how fucked that slip of the tongue was and understood why the guys would have received it in such a negative manner.

I could totally see someone being awkward around girls trying to impress them and saying something like "Dave's band" with no ill intent. Especially back then. It felt like the one absolute regret he's come to terms with. The other general "I take credit when it's good and blame when it's bad" felt awkward and like boilerplate producer talk to me.
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