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Old 05-27-2006, 10:01 AM   #1
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Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

it's more complex than I thought.
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  • Old 05-27-2006, 10:02 AM   #2
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Haha.
    I ono what happened to the content!
    Here goes:

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/miranda-d...524933153.html

    So a man who was "unprepared" deserved to die, according to the 40 or so climbers who passed him without offering any kind of aid.

    Are they completely morally bereft? I've never done mountain climbing so I'm not completely aware of all the conditions, but do these people have no souls or compassion? Or is it about the money and the prestige of it all? OR is this atypical of what society has become: screw all others on your way to the top?

    Personally this makes me ill.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 10:03 AM   #3
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Hasn't this happened kinda frequently?

    Edit: Okay, I hadn't read the story. The cases I have heard about were when storms hit while descending or some other trouble came about. This isn't like that and makes me a little ill.

    Last edited by athousandyears; 05-27-2006 at 10:08 AM.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 10:06 AM   #4
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by athousandyears
    Hasn't this happened kinda frequently?
    Not people passing a man dying and not helping him, at least not that I'm aware of. Could be wrong.

    Oh and the really ironic thing: the larger expedition that passed him was led by a double amputee who almost died while mountain clmibing in New Zealand. No one then said "fuck it, he should have been better prepared". The people that rescued him then risked their lives to do so. When it came time to pay it back the bank was closed it seems.
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    Last edited by [DMB]TheGurl; 05-27-2006 at 10:07 AM. Reason: cos I can't spell
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    Old 05-27-2006, 10:11 AM   #5
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by [DMB]TheGurl
    Not people passing a man dying and not helping him, at least not that I'm aware of. Could be wrong.

    Oh and the really ironic thing: the larger expedition that passed him was led by a double amputee who almost died while mountain clmibing in New Zealand. No one then said "fuck it, he should have been better prepared". The people that rescued him then risked their lives to do so. When it came time to pay it back the bank was closed it seems.
    I did an edit after seeing the article.

    I agree that this was horrible and avoidable.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 10:26 AM   #6
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    mount everest is an interesting case. i watched some discovery series on a team trying to climb it, and when a weather window opens up it looks like a staircase of people trying to make the climb. they've paid a lot of money, have huge egos, have spent months or years training and will do almost anything to get to put 'everest summit' beside their names, and not much is going to stop them.

    I'm not a mountaineer, but i've read a lot of mountaineering literature, and leaving people behind to die isn't unusual. in certain circumstances, there is just no way to get someone off of a mountain, and a major injury in some situations is the same as dying. however, when there is a chance of rescue, most in the community will do whatever it takes to get that person down, because climbers know that the next time it could very well be them who needs it.

    odds are that we won't get an accurate account of what happened in this case, but it seems like people didn't want to pass up their chance, and justified it by convincing themselves that it was one of the cases where nothing could be done. if that's true or not, who knows. Everest has its own culture where guides will push pull or drag anybody with enough money to the top, and that likely contributed to what happened here.

    as a climber i know well says, it takes a lot more courage to decide to stop a climb and turn around than it does to keep going.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 10:48 AM   #7
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    From what I read this story seems a bit sensationalized. Climbers did stop to help the guy, but he was too far gone for help. He was very near the summit. So these people had hiked all the way to the top, see this dude laying there unconscious and pretty much dead, and they continue to the top (which was nearby) before heading back down to report the guy. If you put it in the context of driving to work it is pretty morbid, but these people were on the top of Everest.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 04:16 PM   #8
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...e.html?ref=rss

    And

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...International/
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    Old 05-27-2006, 04:21 PM   #9
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    i was just going to post that story. my guess is that given how much the climbers have invested in making the summit, they convinced themselves, consciously or otherwise, that the guy was beyond saving and pushed on. whether or not that's true will never be known. my opinion from my comfortable desk chair is to err on the side of trying to save him, especially in light of the links you posted.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 04:22 PM   #10
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Greedy little s
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    Old 05-27-2006, 04:51 PM   #11
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mr.MikeD
    i was just going to post that story. my guess is that given how much the climbers have invested in making the summit, they convinced themselves, consciously or otherwise, that the guy was beyond saving and pushed on. whether or not that's true will never be known. my opinion from my comfortable desk chair is to err on the side of trying to save him, especially in light of the links you posted.
    I have read about how much it costs, and how long it can take to get a chance. I don't deny these people any of that. Its an achievement of a lifetime. I might even understand that it being such an extreme enviroment that your survival could be in jeopardy if you make a bad choice (as the deceased found out). I guess I just don't understand how 40 or so people could walk past this guy and all of them say "too bad" and not "Hey if a few of us helped him, he might make it". I don't mean to seem all high and mighty from my comfy livingroom chair. It just seems..grossly ignorant for lack of a better word.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 04:54 PM   #12
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    i completely argree.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 05:13 PM   #13
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Read "Into Thin Air" by Jon Krakauer before you comment further. Great book that will help you understand the situation.

    In normal situations, hikers and climbers help each other out...but Everest, that's not normal, that's extreme.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 09:06 PM   #14
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    so mount everest is 29, 035 feet and not 29, 028 feet as once believed.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 11:14 PM   #15
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by [DMB]TheGurl
    Not people passing a man dying and not helping him, at least not that I'm aware of. Could be wrong.

    Oh and the really ironic thing: the larger expedition that passed him was led by a double amputee who almost died while mountain clmibing in New Zealand. No one then said "fuck it, he should have been better prepared". The people that rescued him then risked their lives to do so. When it came time to pay it back the bank was closed it seems.

    Yeah thats what I was going to say. Ive seen the story on that guy. He trapped under a rock for two days and should be dead but his climbing partner risked his life to save this guy and well what do you know, they defied the odds and he lived. Thats pretty shitty that he wouldnt repay the help.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 11:18 PM   #16
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Kind of hard for us to judge I think. Most of us will never be in a similar situation and I'm guessing we don't have any users who climbed Everest either. I'd liken it certain times where only someone 'right there' is qualified to proclaim judgement.

    Someting like this seems hard for me to condemn. Similarly, I would not judge 'displays of callousness' enacted by men in combat. Sometimes someone is just beyond help and the effort alone could jeopardize others. Sounds mean and coldhearted but sometimes it is a logical option. I don't think it's right for someone who's never been through something like that to judge.

    As was noted in that (IMO rather one sided) article linked to this is similar to a ship captain being caught in a hurricane. If he sees someone in the water on deaths door should he stop to try and help or keep making every effort to reach a port and save his own shipmates?

    I'll happily accept any criticisms from people who have climbed Everest (ie Hillary) or a similarly high peak but people sitting in a cushy office or home criticizing these guys just don't have too much credibility to me.
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    Last edited by Lcsulla; 05-27-2006 at 11:21 PM.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 11:18 PM   #17
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carbon Copy
    so mount everest is 29, 035 feet and not 29, 028 feet as once believed.

    It snowed 7ft since then.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 11:29 PM   #18
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lcsulla
    Kind of hard for us to judge I think. Most of us will never be in a similar situation and I'm guessing we don't have any users who climbed Everest either. I'd liken it certain times where only someone 'right there' is qualified to proclaim judgement.

    Someting like this seems hard for me to condemn. Similarly, I would not judge 'displays of callousness' enacted by men in combat. Sometimes someone is just beyond help and the effort alone could jeopardize others. Sounds mean and coldhearted but sometimes it is a logical option. I don't think it's right for someone who's never been through something like that to judge.

    As was noted in that (IMO rather one sided) article linked to this is similar to a ship captain being caught in a hurricane. If he sees someone in the water on deaths door should he stop to try and help or keep making every effort to reach a port and save his own shipmates?

    I'll happily accept any criticisms from people who have climbed Everest (ie Hillary) or a similarly high peak but people sitting in a cushy office or home criticizing these guys just don't have too much credibility to me.
    to me the difference between this situation and the combat example, or the sailing race rescue, is that the other climbers weren't putting their lives in danger, they would putting their summit push in jeopardy, had they stopped. maybe he was savable, maybe not, but as i said above, from the comfort of my desk chair, i can't imagine doing anything other than erring on the side of trying to help. like the party that stopped 200 m from the summit and ultimately saved the life of another climber in the link posted by dmb-gurl or someone.

    and i just saw the last part of your post - no i haven't climbed everest or similar peaks, but i don't think that prevents me from at least speculating about the situation.

    but if you're interested in hillary's opinion
    Quote:
    "It would have been a disaster from our point of view," Hillary said. "I don't think it matters a damn if he was from another party, if he was Swiss or from Timbuktu or whatever. He was a human being, and we would regard it as our duty to get him back to safety."

    Last edited by mr.MikeD; 05-27-2006 at 11:33 PM.
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    Old 05-27-2006, 11:47 PM   #19
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    "I'm not dead!"
    "Yes you are."
    "I'm getting better!"

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060527...a_060527130903
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    Old 05-28-2006, 12:00 AM   #20
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    I'm just waiting for the day when globalization reaches the point where this guy can make it to base camp, order a Big Mac Value Meal and a Venti Double Shot Espresso, and check into a Motel 6. Might sound a little crazy, but then again, one of the main points of the debate is the overreaching commercialization of the expeditions.

    As for me, I'd rather be the one who invents an aircraft that can take me to the summit. The air is too thin for helicopters to navigate, while a plane cannot work for obvious reasons. Why do something the hard way when you can just be lazy about the whole affair? Necessity isn't the mother of all invention, laziness and convenience are.
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    Old 05-28-2006, 12:26 AM   #21
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tdowe99
    "I'm not dead!"
    "Yes you are."
    "I'm getting better!"

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060527...a_060527130903
    WTF? So is the guy alive or dead?

    I knew this something wasn't right with this story.
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    Old 05-28-2006, 12:32 AM   #22
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mr.MikeD
    to me the difference between this situation and the combat example, or the sailing race rescue, is that the other climbers weren't putting their lives in danger, they would putting their summit push in jeopardy, had they stopped. maybe he was savable, maybe not, but as i said above, from the comfort of my desk chair, i can't imagine doing anything other than erring on the side of trying to help. like the party that stopped 200 m from the summit and ultimately saved the life of another climber in the link posted by dmb-gurl or someone.

    and i just saw the last part of your post - no i haven't climbed everest or similar peaks, but i don't think that prevents me from at least speculating about the situation.

    but if you're interested in hillary's opinion
    Yeah, I saw Hillary's statements, that's why I noted him in particular.

    I think it's a bit of speculation to assume they would not have put their own lives in any sort of jeopardy. We have no idea whether they had the supplies, mainly oxygen, to help him or of they would be cutting into their own reserves - I can't imagine anyone carrying much more than is absolutely essential. We don't know if he was injured and would have required being carried down. They don't know if helping him would have slowed them down to the point where a storm or something may have trapped them. Hell we don't even know exactly how far gone he was when they found him - isn't it possible he was on his last breaths and nothing they could have done would have helped? In general there's a lot of unknowns there IMO so, like I said, I am not sure it's completely fair to condemn them when no one that wasn't there knows how the scenario played out.
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    Old 05-28-2006, 12:35 AM   #23
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OCMarsh
    WTF? So is the guy alive or dead?

    I knew this something wasn't right with this story.
    2 different people. Same basic story. One died, one didn't.
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    Old 07-19-2008, 10:00 PM   #24
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    someone ban this annoying alter topping all jake's old threads

    why i dunno
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    Old 05-26-2019, 06:50 AM   #25
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Actually surprised only 9 fatalities on Everest this year. It’s a testament to how clear the weather has been over the past few days.

    Could you imagine if a serious storm blew in with this single line packed with climbers on the south side?
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    Old 05-26-2019, 07:50 AM   #26
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    That's crazy. Just a puppy mill of summiters
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    Old 05-26-2019, 08:19 AM   #27
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    I saw that picture and it blows my mind. There's enough traffic jams that make Everest deadly and dangerous with one-tenth of those people.

    Last edited by coldengrey12; 05-26-2019 at 08:21 AM.
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    Old 05-26-2019, 10:30 AM   #28
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Climb2safety View Post
    Actually surprised only 9 fatalities on Everest this year. It’s a testament to how clear the weather has been over the past few days.

    Could you imagine if a serious storm blew in with this single line packed with climbers on the south side?
    The harmony of a poster named Climb 2 Safety commenting on how safe it's been to climb Everest is just beautiful.
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    Old 05-26-2019, 12:41 PM   #29
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Climb2safety View Post
    Actually surprised only 9 fatalities on Everest this year. It’s a testament to how clear the weather has been over the past few days.

    Could you imagine if a serious storm blew in with this single line packed with climbers on the south side?
    That made me feel a little ill. Whitney got bad on my last trip a few years ago but that's... that's awful.
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    Old 05-26-2019, 01:02 PM   #30
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    Re: Climbers leave man to die on Mount Everest (Moralityc)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Climb2safety View Post
    Actually surprised only 9 fatalities on Everest this year. It’s a testament to how clear the weather has been over the past few days.

    Could you imagine if a serious storm blew in with this single line packed with climbers on the south side?
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