Marvel Cinematic Universe Fandom (MCUc)

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

For me, it's that Marvel is basically making exactly what their goal is - fun, high-spectacle blockbuster movies with likeable characters, stories that build on each other, and a cohesive vision. And that may not be everyone's cup of tea, and I get that some people want deeper movies, and that's a perfectly valid critique, but Marvel is hitting their target of what they want their movies to be with amazing accuracy.

DC, it seems they have a goal of making more serious, deeper, and artistic movies - which is an admirable goal. And if they ever knock one out of the park I think I would admit that, Marvel or DC loyalties aside, they are better movies than Marvel (I'm a Marvel guy who will happily state that the Nolan trilogy were the best superhero movies ever) But I'm not sure they even come close to hitting the target yet with these DCEU films, and I'm not sure they even know what their target is or have a vision for getting there. I think that's why the DCEU faces criticism that Marvel doesn't - they are aiming for something that they have not been able to come close to hitting.

I agree with everything you said here. Personally I think it's better to try for something more ambitious and "miss the mark", so to speak, than copy Marvel's formula. Whether or not they've hit their target is up to personal preference and interpretation but I respect your opinion coming down on the other side than mine.

I will slightly disagree with you on the vision aspect; I think they had a vision for a Snyder-centric DCEU but when they saw the negative backlash after BvS they changed course. If I remember correctly they were essentially going to give Snyder free reign to be in charge of the DCEU. It was only after BvS that they brought on Geoff Johns to act in the Feige-type role. I think you'll see a more coherent vision going forward now that they've sort of course-corrected.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by mrignatious

Lifted directly from this post

I think you're confused. I said it's disingenuous and hypocritical to act like the Marvel movies are above criticism. I never said anything about liking one over the other.

It's possible to like something and be critical of it at the same time.

[WidespreadMule3]

Originally Posted by mrignatious

Lifted directly from this post

[MOWJO8185]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

I agree with everything you said here. Personally I think it's better to try for something more ambitious and "miss the mark", so to speak, than copy Marvel's formula. Whether or not they've hit their target is up to personal preference and interpretation but I respect your opinion coming down on the other side than mine.

I will slightly disagree with you on the vision aspect; I think they had a vision for a Snyder-centric DCEU but when they saw the negative backlash after BvS they changed course. If I remember correctly they were essentially going to give Snyder free reign to be in charge of the DCEU. It was only after BvS that they brought on Geoff Johns to act in the Feige-type role. I think you'll see a more coherent vision going forward now that they've sort of course-corrected.

I know they reshot/re-edited Suicide Squad based on BvS backlash, but I think an initial lack of vision is reflected in the ridiculously odd placement of Suicide Squad as the 3rd movie in the DCEU in the first place.

[mrignatious]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

I think you're confused. I said it's disingenuous and hypocritical to act like the Marvel movies are above criticism. I never said anything about liking one over the other.

It's possible to like something and be critical of it at the same time.

Right.

But how does that tie into your previous posts? Not sure anyone is saying the MCU is above criticism.

[UCFish]

Originally Posted by mrignatious

Right.

But how does that tie into your previous posts? Not sure anyone is saying the MCU is above criticism.

Absolutely not....Thor 2 such trash.

Plenty wrong with some of the other ones as well.

I do not think that Marvel just shits gold.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by mrignatious

Right.

But how does that tie into your previous posts? Not sure anyone is saying the MCU is above criticism.

No one's said it but with the universal love Marvel gets around here it seems to me that Marvel is generally above the same/similar criticisms re: storytelling, character development, plot holes, etc. that the DCEU is subject to.

[mrignatious]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

No one's said it but with the universal love Marvel gets around here it seems to me that Marvel is generally above the same/similar criticisms re: storytelling, character development, plot holes, etc. that the DCEU is subject to.

That's what happens when you make good movies people enjoy though. Which is, unfortunately, something that is yet to happen in th DC universe.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by mrignatious

That's what happens when you make good movies people enjoy though. Which is, unfortunately, something that is yet to happen in th DC universe.

Again, whether a movie is "good" is subjective and a matter of opinion. I would say three of the 14 Marvel movies thus far have been "good"; but that's just, like, my opinion man.

I also think it's pretty absurd to say that if you think a movie is good then what happens is it's above criticism which is what follows from your post.

[mrignatious]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Again, whether a movie is "good" is subjective and a matter of opinion. I would say three of the 14 Marvel movies thus far have been "good"; but that's just, like, my opinion man.

I also think it's pretty absurd to say that if you think a movie is good then what happens is it's above criticism which is what follows from your post.

I'm saying that because they are good and enjoyable comic book movies there is less to criticize than, say, a poorly made less enjoyable comic book movie. That's why it *seems* like they're above or immune to criticism.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by mrignatious

I'm saying that because they are good and enjoyable comic book movies there is less to criticize than, say, a poorly made less enjoyable comic book movie. That's why it *seems* like they're above or immune to criticism.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, then; there is plenty about many Marvel films to criticize even regarding basic storytelling but I'll save that for another day. I'll title it the Marvel Manifesto.

[UCFish]

If only there was a system that polled almost 300 critics to get an overall impression on if a movie is good...

[mrignatious]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, then; there is plenty about many Marvel films to criticize even regarding basic storytelling but I'll save that for another day. I'll title it the Marvel Manifesto.

You do you bud. The rest of us will continue to enjoy most of them and hope that DC can right the ship and turn out some good ones sooner rather than later.

[thebridge15]

Originally Posted by UCFish

If only there was a system that polled almost 300 critics to get an overall impression on if a movie is good...

they just didn't get it / they were paid by marvel

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by mrignatious

You do you bud. The rest of us will continue to enjoy most of them and hope that DC can right the ship and turn out some good ones sooner rather than later.

Lucky for you, they already have!

[rickyh24]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Lucky for you, they already have!

[WidespreadMule3]

You ever have one of those house guests that doesn't get the cues that they've passed their welcome?

[UCFish]

Ehhh I like MSteng in here....helps the thread move.

[MOWJO8185]

In his defense, the DC threads ARE mostly a wasteland of people making fun of those movies.

[MOWJO8185]

Originally Posted by UCFish

Ehhh I like MSteng in here....helps the thread move.

Agreed. And I do get his opinion on Marvel. I can totally get a serious DC comic reader not loving the style of Marvel's movies and also not having a built-in affection for the characters to fall back on. I don't think I'll ever be able to get onboard with his opinion of BvS (although I liked it more than most in here, I think) but that's what makes the discussion fun.

[UCFish]

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

In his defense, the DC threads ARE mostly a wasteland of people making fun of those movies.

With the 5 Defenders discussing how genius BvS is...and that it is the most accurate depiction of a comic of all time.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by UCFish

Ehhh I like MSteng in here....helps the thread move.

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

In his defense, the DC threads ARE mostly a wasteland of people making fun of those movies.

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

Agreed. And I do get his opinion on Marvel. I can totally get a serious DC comic reader not loving the style of Marvel's movies and also not having a built-in affection for the characters to fall back on. I don't think I'll ever be able to get onboard with his opinion of BvS (although I liked it more than most in here, I think) but that's what makes the discussion fun.

Originally Posted by UCFish

With the 5 Defenders discussing how genius BvS is...and that it is the most accurate depiction of a comic of all time.

<3 you guys. At the end of the day we're all a bunch of grown men discussing fictional grown men who dress in tights to fight crime in response to a childhood tragedy.

[thebridge15]

did something happen in batman's childhood?

[MOWJO8185]

In other news, I'm really struggling to get through Iron Fist.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by thebridge15

did something happen in batman's childhood?

Can't remember at the moment but your post is definitely ringing a bell.

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

In other news, I'm really struggling to get through Iron Fist.

Saw reviews were not great. Did you ever watch Luke Cage? I heard mixed reviews on that as well. It seems the MNU has gone downhill since Daredevil S1 (which I absolutely loved).

[BTBaboon]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Saw reviews were not great. Did you ever watch Luke Cage? I heard mixed reviews on that as well. It seems the MNU has gone downhill since Daredevil S1 (which I absolutely loved).

Daredevil season 1 was good, but I thought season 2 was better; largely because of the Punisher.

I still can't finish Jessica Jones which has prevented me from starting Luke Cage. Not sure I'll make it to Defenders

[MOWJO8185]

I think a lot of the Marvel Netflix shows have suffered from having 13 episode orders when they have maybe only 6 or 7 episodes worth of story to tell. I thought both Jessica Jones and Luke Cage (and really, Daredevil Season 2 for that matter) had terrific starts, and pretty good finishes as well, but there are just full episodes in the middle that are a slog to get through. Luke Cage basically was watchable in the middle based entirely on the likeability of the Luke, Misty and Claire characters.

Iron Fist honestly feels like it exists only because they felt like they had to make it to get to the Defenders. I would have been totally fine if he had just been introduced in the Defenders series and was given special focus in the early episodes to establish his origin since we know about the others already.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by BTBaboon

Daredevil season 1 was good, but I thought season 2 was better; largely because of the Punisher.

I still can't finish Jessica Jones which has prevented me from starting Luke Cage. Not sure I'll make it to Defenders

The start of DD S2 was really good but it definitely sputtered toward the finish line.

I actually liked JJ for the first few episodes but it took a sharp turn for the worse once they got into the Purple Man's backstory.

I think it speaks to a larger issue of these seasons being too long...I'd rather have 7-8 strong episodes with a concise and really well-crafted story than dragging it out for additional unnecessary time. It's clear the writers have struggled to meaningfully fill a 13-episode season outside of DD S1.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

I think a lot of the Marvel Netflix shows have suffered from having 13 episode orders when they have maybe only 6 or 7 episodes worth of story to tell. I thought both Jessica Jones and Luke Cage (and really, Daredevil Season 2 for that matter) had terrific starts, and pretty good finishes as well, but there are just full episodes in the middle that are a slog to get through. Luke Cage basically was watchable in the middle based entirely on the likeability of the Luke, Misty and Claire characters.

Iron Fist honestly feels like it exists only because they felt like they had to make it to get to the Defenders. I would have been totally fine if he had just been introduced in the Defenders series and was given special focus in the early episodes to establish his origin since we know about the others already.

See, you and I are not so unalike!

[MOWJO8185]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

See, you and I are not so unalike!

Haha nice. Solid take right there.