So... I'd like to talk about religion

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by grace2

he was a pretty well spoken guy and i usually agreed with his take on things regarding religion.

he was literally drunk all the time.

The true definition of a highly functioning alcoholic. Not sure how he did it. Guy would literally go on live television drunk as can be and still spit out his thoughts with nearly perfect clarity.

[grace2]

Originally Posted by chadizzy1

I also believe in science. I do not believe in a literal 6 day creation. I follow the belief of theistic evolution in that God guided the evolutionary processes. I think there's much more evidence for that.

i think this is what christianity should become in the future.

it makes sense to me that someone could believe there was a higher power which put the big bang and evolutionary processes in motion and i don't completely not believe that myself.

Originally Posted by smb41

No, you don't need to believe in God to follow the Golden Rule. But here's my issue with that - why would one feel compelled to follow the Golden Rule if there is no God, or no source of objective morality? If one truly believes that we are alone in the universe (in that there is no higher being, thus no objective morality), what's stopping us from being violent, unprincipled people?

this is an argument i see all the time and i've never understood it.

so if you didn't think there was a god, you would just go out killing? i want to be a good, kind person and for me, god has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

[kydmb99]

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

"Faith is the permission religious people give one another to believe something when reason fails"

We're held accountable by common sense in every field with the exception of religion. To hold any water at all our claims have to be supported by good evidence. But not with God. Why is that?

Isn't this kind of the point of religion? To provide an explanation for the things science can't? I would also think that if there is a god the laws of science wouldn't apply as God kind of created them.

[jrod41]

Originally Posted by MarvinBerry

Not personally religious.

However if religion makes you a happier and kinder person, go wild. If religion makes you weird, judgmental or just batshit crazy, you suck.

pretty much my feelings as well.

was raised Christian growing up, and went to church/active in youth group up through high school, but since then I've started to care less. Generally only go to church once every 3-4 months or on certain occasions. I consider myself more spiritual than religious if anything.

only thing regarding religion that pisses me off nowadays are the nutjob Westboro baptists shitheads/people that feel the need to ruin other people's lives because it isn't what they perceive as "moral," and the assholes who feel the need to belittle religious people in situations where it isn't needed.

[grace2]

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

"Faith is the permission religious people give one another to believe something when reason fails"

We're held accountable by common sense in every field with the exception of religion. To hold any water at all our claims have to be supported by good evidence. But not with God. Why is that?

i think it's because religion is based around fear.

people are scared to even think outside of their religious realm because of hell. let alone believe that something within their religion could be incorrect.

even with all the scientific proof regarding our great beyond, people will continue to turn a blind eye to it because if they were to even ponder there could be another explanation to our universe, they believe they would go to hell.

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by kydmb99

Isn't this kind of the point of religion? To provide an explanation for the things science can't? I would also think that if there is a god the laws of science wouldn't apply as God kind of created them.

Religion's answer for everything is "God did it." What other explanation does it provide for the way the world works? As science and our understanding of the world progresses, all of the sudden God just becomes more clever? Why doesn't the Bible have any chapters on quantum physics and calculus? Seems God should know these things.

Science continues to answer and strive for answers. Again, it's kept in check by all of sorts of restraints ranging from peer review to replication. Religion isn't held to the same standards. It gets a free pass because it's so precious to people and taboo to criticize.

[Nick@Night]

Grew up Catholic. Private Catholic grade school, church twice a week until 7th grade, had a great aunt and a great uncle that both committed their entire adult lives to God. Went to a private Catholic college, the same place where my great uncle was a monk in the monastery until he died during my junior year.

Me now? Atheist.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by grace2

i think this is what christianity should become in the future.



it makes sense to me that someone could believe there was a higher power which put the big bang and evolutionary processes in motion and i don't completely not believe that myself.



this is an argument i see all the time and i've never understood it.



so if you didn't think there was a god, you would just go out killing? i want to be a good, kind person and for me, god has nothing to do with that whatsoever.

Why shouldn't I? If humans are a biological accident and there is no God or higher being, then there are actions and consequences, not right and wrong. If that were true, killing would be no better than an act of kindness, or anything else for that matter. If God doesn't exist, I wouldn't have any rules to follow, so why would I abide by any?

[FromTheMorning]

I also take issue with indoctrination. Essentially born with no choice. My relationship with my parents has grown a bit rockier because of my lack of belief. It's by no means bad and we still get along fine. But I can't help but think it would be better if they had just raised me without introducing me to religion until I was able to comprehend what it even was.

[Climb2safety]

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

"Faith is the permission religious people give one another to believe something when reason fails"

We're held accountable by common sense in every field with the exception of religion. To hold any water at all our claims have to be supported by good evidence. But not with God. Why is that?

I totally understand why someone who doesn't believe in God would undergo a personal investigation to be sure of their beliefs. For me, what I believe I don't look at it like that.

I accept what I don't know and what I believe through my faith as just that, what I believe.

I do think there is evidence though of God if you look in the right places.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by junior94

holy mother of god... that kid (yes, KID) is absolutely frightening, as is the majority of the comments I just skimmed down the page. To see someone that young, and already has an iron clad and razor sharp steadfastness in every single syllable he's saying, it just makes me weep.

just the fact alone of how unequivocally he equates abortion to slavery in the "argument" he's making... this kid's like Karl Rove and Sean Hannity's fucking wet dream.

Like him or not, he's extremely intelligent and raises some very valid points in this video and in all of his work. He's my all-time favorite conservative pundit.

[TwoStep2888]

Originally Posted by smb41

Why shouldn't I? If humans are a biological accident and there is no God or higher being, then there are actions and consequences, not right and wrong. If that were true, killing would be no better than an act of kindness, or anything else for that matter. If God doesn't exist, I wouldn't have any rules to follow, so why would I abide by any?

I think it's already been said itt, but if you need the threat of god to be a decent person, you're an asshole

[Climb2safety]

I find it interesting how so many here seem to have gone from a Catholic upbringing straight to atheism, no stop at agnosticism or changing to Buddhism or something, right to no chance, no god.

Was it how your families were to you that caused this? Or, what do you all attribute this to?

[junior94]

Originally Posted by jrod41

only thing regarding religion that pisses me off nowadays are the nutjob Westboro baptists shitheads/people that feel the need to ruin other people's lives because it isn't what they perceive as "moral," and the assholes who feel the need to belittle religious people in situations where it isn't needed.

the thing about the Phelps family in general (although younger generations keep breaking away more and more over the years and denouncing the older ones), what's scary is they are absolute the quintessential examples of self righteousness. Because often times, you actually hear them speak about the type of people they protest against, THEY (the Phelphs) don't really even have a personal beef with the "sinners", the way they claim it, it's just that "it's GOD who says what's wrong with them/what's happening with them", that it's God who's judged they'll burn in hell for their sins. And that's the heart of it, they believe wholeheartedly they are speaking directly on behalf of God's will.

"It's not me/us who says those fags will burn in eternal damnation for what they do, it's God!" They're just making sure to be God's publicist loud & fucking clear.

[junior94]

Originally Posted by smb41

Like him or not, he's extremely intelligent and raises some very valid points in this video and in all of his work. He's my all-time favorite conservative pundit.

There can be an EPIC GULF of difference between being an accomplished and confident, clear public speaker (which I'll grant him in spades), and being "extremely intelligent". From what I'm looking at, he's got a very long journey to go to hope to get near the latter.

it actually sort of reminds me of the old Damon Wayans death row inmate skit on In Living Colour. Taken individually the bits you say in your speech can SOUND polished and even profound, but it adds up to a not inconsiderable amount of nonsense when looked at as a whole.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by TwoStep2888

I think it's already been said itt, but if you need the threat of god to be a decent person, you're an asshole

The OP started this thread to learn "how and why people come to [their] beliefs." There's no need to demonize and name-call people over a disagreement. We're just having a discussion.

As to your post itself, who/what gets to determine what a "decent person" is with the absence of an objective morality?

[kydmb99]

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

Religion's answer for everything is "God did it." What other explanation does it provide for the way the world works? As science and our understanding of the world progresses, all of the sudden God just becomes more clever? Why doesn't the Bible have any chapters on quantum physics and calculus? Seems God should know these things.

Science continues to answer and strive for answers. Again, it's kept in check by all of sorts of restraints ranging from peer review to replication. Religion isn't held to the same standards. It gets a free pass because it's so precious to people and taboo to criticize.

Religion gets a free pass? Hmm.. Okay.

When you say that's religion's answer to everything, I don't really know what you're talking about. Religion isn't meant to answer the same questions as science. You don't read a textbook to answer the question of why we exist. You don't read a textbook to answer what happens to us after we die. Just like you don't read the bible to learn trigonometry. I think you're criticizing religion for not doing something it really wasn't intended to do.

All I can say is that scientific advances are made and we learn more about how amazingly beautiful, complex, and seemingly designed our world and we are, the more I believe there has to be an intelligent creator. There's no way, in my opinion, that this just somehow happened on it own.

[gonz085]

Hitchens was amazing, as was his literature. He went far too soon.

[Route_2]

Originally Posted by smb41

As to your post itself, who/what gets to determine what a "decent person" is with the absence of an objective morality?

Would you concede that if at this very moment it were proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no god, that you would start raping, stealing and murdering? If not, why?

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by smb41

Why shouldn't I? If humans are a biological accident and there is no God or higher being, then there are actions and consequences, not right and wrong. If that were true, killing would be no better than an act of kindness, or anything else for that matter. If God doesn't exist, I wouldn't have any rules to follow, so why would I abide by any?

Watch that Hitchens video I posted last page. Your argument is still tied down to morality being objective.

Thousands and thousands of years of human growth and evolution has created subjective morality. We have deemed certain actions right and wrong. Even today though, we don't have it even close to perfect. Honor Killing for example. The groups that practice that think they have a moral responsibility to do so.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by junior94

There can be an EPIC GULF of difference between being an accomplished and confident, clear public speaker (which I'll grant him in spades), and being "extremely intelligent". From what I'm looking at, he's got a very long journey to go to hope to get near the latter.

it actually sort of reminds me of the old Damon Wayans death row inmate skit on In Living Colour. Taken individually the bits you say in your speech can SOUND polished and even profound, but it adds up to a not inconsiderable amount of nonsense when looked at as a whole.

Have you read any of his books or listened to his podcast? He entered UCLA at 16 and graduated summa cum laude, then went on to Harvard Law School. He's written six books, is a NYT bestseller and is the editor-in-chief of the Daily Wire, and he's only 32 years old. I'm not sure how you define "intelligent" but I'm pretty sure he is, whether you agree with him or not.

[gonz085]

Originally Posted by smb41

The OP started this thread to learn "how and why people come to [their] beliefs." There's no need to demonize and name-call people over a disagreement. We're just having a discussion.

As to your post itself, who/what gets to determine what a "decent person" is with the absence of an objective morality?

The golden rule tends to work just fine.

[junior94]

Originally Posted by Route_2

Would you concede that if at this very moment it were proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no god, that you would start raping, stealing and murdering? If not, why?

umm... am I missing something there? Because we also have the basic LAWS OF MEN. even if it were proven there were no god, it seems to me it would still be quite reasonable for you to be arrested and incarcerated if you then willfully murdered your neighbor (or whomever it might be).


granted, even as I say that, that is kind of looking at it in the abstract. Just because, if it were suddenly PROVEN somehow there were no god (though let's be honest, that would only make the most hardcore, ardent believers believe EVEN MORE, cause that's what tends to happen with them ), but I have to think to say there would be widespread civil unrest would be the understatement of all time.

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by kydmb99

Religion gets a free pass? Hmm.. Okay.

When you say that's religion's answer to everything, I don't really know what you're talking about. Religion isn't meant to answer the same questions as science. You don't read a textbook to answer the question of why we exist. You don't read a textbook to answer what happens to us after we die. Just like you don't read the bible to learn trigonometry. I think you're criticizing religion for not doing something it really wasn't intended to do.

All I can say is that scientific advances are made and we learn more about how amazingly beautiful, complex, and seemingly designed our world and we are, the more I believe there has to be an intelligent creator. There's no way, in my opinion, that this just somehow happened on it own.

Then it shouldn't ask the same questions. Religion makes all sorts of scientific claims (afterlife, resurrection, virgin birth, Jesus returning to earth, origins of the universe, etc...) with absolutely nothing to back them up and no intention of finding the answers.

If there was indeed a creator, calling it intelligent would be a hell of a stretch. I'd say more like bipolar. Sometimes smart, other times moronic. Sometimes creative, other times lazy. Sometimes loving, other times cruel.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by Route_2

Would you concede that if at this very moment it were proven beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no god, that you would start raping, stealing and murdering? If not, why?

That's a ridiculous question. If I (and the rest of the human population) had been born with the absolute awareness that there is no God, then maybe I would. But I (and many, many other people) have lived my life in a way that coincides with the existence of God, so I wouldn't be able to merely flip a switch if your scenario played out. It's impossible for me to say if/how I would change under those circumstances. If I (along with everyone else) had lived my entire life knowing God doesn't exist, then that would be different.

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by smb41

That's a ridiculous question. If I (and the rest of the human population) had been born with the absolute awareness that there is no God, then maybe I would. But I have lived my life in a way that coincides with the existence of God, so I wouldn't be able to merely flip a switch if your scenario played out. It's impossible for me to say if/how I would change under those circumstances. If I (along with everyone else) had lived my entire life knowing God doesn't exist, then that would be different.

Not a ridiculous question and it's the reason I wanted you watch the Hitch video. This is the thought experiment. It's hypothetical. Do you honestly think that if tomorrow you woke up to news of some scientific breakthrough that 100% disproved the existence of any god, you just might get the urge to go murder an innocent person for the hell of it? What does that say of your makeup, your character?

[grace2]

Originally Posted by smb41

Why shouldn't I? If humans are a biological accident and there is no God or higher being, then there are actions and consequences, not right and wrong. If that were true, killing would be no better than an act of kindness, or anything else for that matter. If God doesn't exist, I wouldn't have any rules to follow, so why would I abide by any?

i think morals are found through common sense, not through god.

this is all very theoretical in my opinion. if i understand your theory, life is completely meaningless without god and god's rules. i don't see it that way at all. i see a lot of purpose in life, even if i don't know exactly where it came from or why it's here.

[TwoStep2888]

Originally Posted by smb41

The OP started this thread to learn "how and why people come to [their] beliefs." There's no need to demonize and name-call people over a disagreement. We're just having a discussion.

As to your post itself, who/what gets to determine what a "decent person" is with the absence of an objective morality?

people would, as people always have

[FromTheMorning]

Originally Posted by Climb2safety

I find it interesting how so many here seem to have gone from a Catholic upbringing straight to atheism, no stop at agnosticism or changing to Buddhism or something, right to no chance, no god.

Was it how your families were to you that caused this? Or, what do you all attribute this to?

For me I just realized I didn't need it. Didn't provide me any sort of comfort or framework. These days it just makes no sense to me at all. We know too much about how things work when compared to 2,000 years ago. The people that wrote the bible hadn't the slightest clue that the earth was round or the world revolved around the sun. Gods were created to answer these questions. The more we learn the less relevant God becomes.

[smb41]

Originally Posted by FromTheMorning

Not a ridiculous question and it's the reason I wanted you watch the Hitch video. This is the thought experiment. It's hypothetical. Do you honestly think that if tomorrow you woke up to news of some scientific breakthrough that 100% disproved the existence of any god, you just might get the urge to go murder an innocent person for the hell of it? What does that say of your makeup, your character?

To the bold, that wouldn't matter at all if the existence of God were to be disproved.

I watched the video ... I strongly encourage you (or anyone else who is skeptical towards religion or objective morality) to read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Here is a PDF of the book and here is a link to a series of videos narrating the novel. It lays out my point of view very thoroughly.