**Official Running Thread**

[buzz05232000]

Originally Posted by laura22

i was working hard but i feel like i had a little left in the tank

maybe i should get a chest strap to compare. i've always had wacky HR readings with the watches. annoying because i feel like i can never fully utilize the "train in your HR zone" approach

Yeah, I’ve had some weird HR numbers too. I’ve told myself to get a chest strap, but never actually do it. I’m usually a run by feel person.


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[cazzie34]

I've been very pleased with how my Garmin 645 measures heart rate. Feels accurate and never gets caught in the cadence

[DMBZeppelin]

Seems like there's a lot of experience in this thread. I'm prepping for my first marathon in January. I'd appreciate advice on two questions: 1) How many miles should you max out at before the marathon? 2) How long before the marathon should my last long run be?

Just as some background to where I'm at. I'm 36 and have been an off/on runner since my late teens. I typically would average 10k's once I was built up. Once I went mostly remote in March 2020 due to covid. I spent the rest of 2020 getting back in shape and was my typical 10k self by the end of the year. Then I got an Apple Watch for Christmas and it made a huge difference for me. I ran outside all winter in crappy Chicago conditions. I run about 10 miles a day, 6 days a week. Not in official races, but I've ran at least one half marathon every month of 2021. I've been in a tough spot because I've looked at training plans and nothing really accounts for how many miles I'm already doing. I've basically been winging it, but honestly ANY advice from experienced runners would be super helpful.

[mdel21]

The longest run for marathon training is generally 20 miles. Most beginner plans have you do one about three weeks before the race. If you are a little more advanced, you can do two or three 20 mile runs. Most training programs are 18 weeks. Working backwards, the weekly long runs would like something like this:
Week 18 - Race
Week 17 - 8 miles
Week 16 - 12 miles
Week 15 - 20 miles
Week 14 - 12 miles
Week 13 - 20 miles

I would usually do
Monday - off
Tuesday - 4-5 miles
Wednesday - half the distance of the upcoming long run
Thursday - same as Tuesday
Friday - off
Saturday - same as Wednesday
Sunday - Long run

I'm sure Laura, Caz, and everyone else has different/better ideas, but that has worked for me in the past.

[cazzie34]

Originally Posted by DMBZeppelin

Seems like there's a lot of experience in this thread. I'm prepping for my first marathon in January. I'd appreciate advice on two questions: 1) How many miles should you max out at before the marathon? 2) How long before the marathon should my last long run be?

Just as some background to where I'm at. I'm 36 and have been an off/on runner since my late teens. I typically would average 10k's once I was built up. Once I went mostly remote in March 2020 due to covid. I spent the rest of 2020 getting back in shape and was my typical 10k self by the end of the year. Then I got an Apple Watch for Christmas and it made a huge difference for me. I ran outside all winter in crappy Chicago conditions. I run about 10 miles a day, 6 days a week. Not in official races, but I've ran at least one half marathon every month of 2021. I've been in a tough spot because I've looked at training plans and nothing really accounts for how many miles I'm already doing. I've basically been winging it, but honestly ANY advice from experienced runners would be super helpful.

So you are currently running 60 miles a week and the marathon is in 8ish weeks? How often do you incorporate speed? How long have you been at 60/week? How much do you deviate from that?

[laura22]

Originally Posted by DMBZeppelin

Seems like there's a lot of experience in this thread. I'm prepping for my first marathon in January. I'd appreciate advice on two questions: 1) How many miles should you max out at before the marathon? 2) How long before the marathon should my last long run be?

Just as some background to where I'm at. I'm 36 and have been an off/on runner since my late teens. I typically would average 10k's once I was built up. Once I went mostly remote in March 2020 due to covid. I spent the rest of 2020 getting back in shape and was my typical 10k self by the end of the year. Then I got an Apple Watch for Christmas and it made a huge difference for me. I ran outside all winter in crappy Chicago conditions. I run about 10 miles a day, 6 days a week. Not in official races, but I've ran at least one half marathon every month of 2021. I've been in a tough spot because I've looked at training plans and nothing really accounts for how many miles I'm already doing. I've basically been winging it, but honestly ANY advice from experienced runners would be super helpful.

love your passion . 10 miles a day, 6x/week is very impressive. i have similar questions as cazzie- do you typically run at the same pace? and when is the race?

right now i would go with quality > quantity. incorporate a day for speed work, whether its a tempo run or intervals at a track. running 60 miles a week for months and months is unsustainable for most runners, and probably not the most productive use of your training time. add in more variety. you also probably don't need to have that much volume right now. 3 weeks prior to your race you should also taper and have a slow dip in training volume


this type of training plan might be good for you (of course you can't start at week 1) https://www.baa.org/races/boston-mar...train/leveltwo

[DMBZeppelin]

Originally Posted by cazzie34

So you are currently running 60 miles a week and the marathon is in 8ish weeks? How often do you incorporate speed? How long have you been at 60/week? How much do you deviate from that?

1) My speed varies based on a lot of outdoor conditions. Saturday I did 11.09 miles at a 9’54” pace and then Sunday did 10.11 at a 7’45” pace. But I’m typical typically under 10’30” a mile unless my legs are just completely dead.

2) Been at about 60 a week most of the year barring vacations. At about 2,600 miles on the year.

3) Rarely deviate unless it’s more. So I hit 200+ miles every month, but I’ve gone over 300.

Originally Posted by laura22

love your passion . 10 miles a day, 6x/week is very impressive. i have similar questions as cazzie- do you typically run at the same pace? and when is the race?

right now i would go with quality > quantity. incorporate a day for speed work, whether its a tempo run or intervals at a track. running 60 miles a week for months and months is unsustainable for most runners, and probably not the most productive use of your training time. add in more variety. you also probably don't need to have that much volume right now. 3 weeks prior to your race you should also taper and have a slow dip in training volume


this type of training plan might be good for you (of course you can't start at week 1) https://www.baa.org/races/boston-mar...train/leveltwo

When I go for speed how fast should I be attempting to go? The exact date is January 9th, it’s the one at Disney World. How much would you suggest dialing it down? If I do dial it down would I still need to taper further 3 weeks out?

[laura22]

Originally Posted by DMBZeppelin

1) My speed varies based on a lot of outdoor conditions. Saturday I did 11.09 miles at a 9’54” pace and then Sunday did 10.11 at a 7’45” pace. But I’m typical typically under 10’30” a mile unless my legs are just completely dead.

2) Been at about 60 a week most of the year barring vacations. At about 2,600 miles on the year.

3) Rarely deviate unless it’s more. So I hit 200+ miles every month, but I’ve gone over 300.



When I go for speed how fast should I be attempting to go? The exact date is January 9th, it’s the one at Disney World. How much would you suggest dialing it down? If I do dial it down would I still need to taper further 3 weeks out?

is your goal to finish under a certain time or just finish? what’s your fastest half been at a hard effort ?

a well structured marathon plan includes
- runs to improve lactate threshold. the ability to produce energy at a fast rate aerboically without accumulating high levels of lactate in muscles and blood. tempo runs achieve this. rule of thumb: it’s about the pace you can race in an hour

- runs to improve glycogen storage and fat utilization . this you’ve achieved since you frequently run 90 minutes or longer, plus with your high weekly total mileage. this is probably one of your strengths. the weekly long run is essential

- workouts to improve VO2 max. this is the ability to transport large amounts oxygen to muscles and how your muscles use the oxygen . intervals with around 95% of your max HR for a few minutes

the tapering period is important to repair your body after accumulated wear and tear. it improves running economy and muscle strength. 2 week tapering should be a minimum and 3 weeks is optimal. too short of a taper will leave you tired for the race, and anything over 3 weeks, you’ll lose some fitness.

3rd week pre marathon- reduce mileage by 20-25%
2nd week pre marathon- reduce by 40%
marathon week- 60%

[laura22]

after this week, 3 more weeks before you start the taper

for one of your workouts this week- do a 2 mile slow warmup, run at your estimated half race pace for 20-30 minutes, then a 2 mile slow recovery cooldown

you don’t need to go crazy with adding in speed workouts at this point. but I still think you’d benefit from it even with this little time, as long as you let your body recover appropriately

[buzz05232000]

They could also do a half tune up race to see where their fitness is. That might be a good marker to see goal marathon pace, especially with their base of 60+ MPW. Maybe throw in a fast 10k as well. Plug those into the race calculator and it might give some advice for the marathon.


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[cazzie34]

Originally Posted by DMBZeppelin

1) My speed varies based on a lot of outdoor conditions. Saturday I did 11.09 miles at a 9’54” pace and then Sunday did 10.11 at a 7’45” pace. But I’m typical typically under 10’30” a mile unless my legs are just completely dead.

2) Been at about 60 a week most of the year barring vacations. At about 2,600 miles on the year.

3) Rarely deviate unless it’s more. So I hit 200+ miles every month, but I’ve gone over 300.



When I go for speed how fast should I be attempting to go? The exact date is January 9th, it’s the one at Disney World. How much would you suggest dialing it down? If I do dial it down would I still need to taper further 3 weeks out?

You have about one training cycle left before you need to taper for the race. Because you haven't been building up the miles I suggest a shorter taper than if you were actually training from a 18 or even 12 week schedule.

The big thing you need is getting in longer runs so that your body can get used to just being out there for 3+ hours.

Second, you only want to increase your mileage by no more than 10%. Meaning if you run 60 miles this week, you shoulnd't run more than 66 miles next week.

Since you are already at 60 miles a week and your base is super strong what you can do is add miles to your sunday long run and then just run a shorter speed workout during the week. Then the other 4 days are roughly the same as what you've been doing. For example instead of 6 days running 10 miles you do 10, 9, 6, 10, 9, 16

I'll keep this short:

this week: Have your long run be 14 miles. 1 fast work out. No more than 65 miles.
week ending 12/5: 16 mile long run. 1 fast workout. No more than 68.
week ending 12/12: 15 mile long run. 1 fast workout. No more than 70.
week ending 12/19: Long run of at least 18. 1 fast workout. No more than 72.
week ending 12/26: taper begins. Long run of 16. Run 6 days. 1 fast. no more than 60 miles
week ending 1/2: Long run of 12. Run 5 days. 1 fast. No more than 45 miles.
Marathon week: run 4 days all slow. should be about 20 miles total.

For goal time that's tough because you haven't been training for speed. 4 hour marathon is 9:10 pace.

[DMBZeppelin]

I appreciate all the advice everyone! I will definitely be implementing it.

Originally Posted by laura22

is your goal to finish under a certain time or just finish? what’s your fastest half been at a hard effort ?

1) Just looking to finish. First time so I'm just trying to be physically prepared.

2) Fastest half has been 1:54:12. I've had days where I've outpaced that but stopped at 11-12 miles due to lack of time. I know I'm capable of doing it in under 1:50. Example: On a recent run I did 11.01 miles at a 8'21" pace in 1:32:02.

[laura22]

Originally Posted by DMBZeppelin

I appreciate all the advice everyone! I will definitely be implementing it.


1) Just looking to finish. First time so I'm just trying to be physically prepared.

2) Fastest half has been 1:54:12. I've had days where I've outpaced that but stopped at 11-12 miles due to lack of time. I know I'm capable of doing it in under 1:50. Example: On a recent run I did 11.01 miles at a 8'21" pace in 1:32:02.

enjoy it!!!

[BTBaboon]

Anyone else doing a Turkey Trot tomorrow? First organized race since I had my health issue. I have no issue with distance now (can run a 10k-10 miler no problem now), but my speed isn’t there yet.

Trying for sub 9 minute miles tomorrow for the 5k. It’s going to be mid 30s, first real cold run of the season for me

[laura22]

Originally Posted by BTBaboon

Anyone else doing a Turkey Trot tomorrow? First organized race since I had my health issue. I have no issue with distance now (can run a 10k-10 miler no problem now), but my speed isn’t there yet.

Trying for sub 9 minute miles tomorrow for the 5k. It’s going to be mid 30s, first real cold run of the season for me

nice, good luck!! have fun out there

i'm not doing an official race but i'll definitely get in some miles. my fam is in cali this year for the holiday- i wasn't able to make the trip so my run tomorrow will pretty much be the highlight of the day

[mdel21]

We're doing an informal 10k. We have like 8 or 9 people doing it on the I&M Canal tow path.

[cazzie34]

Originally Posted by BTBaboon

Anyone else doing a Turkey Trot tomorrow? First organized race since I had my health issue. I have no issue with distance now (can run a 10k-10 miler no problem now), but my speed isn’t there yet.

Trying for sub 9 minute miles tomorrow for the 5k. It’s going to be mid 30s, first real cold run of the season for me

Good luck.

Tomorrow is supposed to be an off day for me but I always try to run on holidays so I'll probably do a relaxed 6 and then not run on Friday.

[MDPrompter]

Forecast shows rain here from 5am to 6pm tomorrow. Guess it’ll just be pull ups and echelon for me. Then maybe a long, slow, cold run on Friday.

[laura22]

Originally Posted by cazzie34

Good luck.

Tomorrow is supposed to be an off day for me but I always try to run on holidays so I'll probably do a relaxed 6 and then not run on Friday.

any thought in what/when your next race will be?

[BTBaboon]

Run went better than I could have wanted today. Ran at a 7:56 pace, which might be a PR for me

Really surprised myself.

[cazzie34]

Originally Posted by cazzie34

Good luck.

Tomorrow is supposed to be an off day for me but I always try to run on holidays so I'll probably do a relaxed 6 and then not run on Friday.

I am sick of running slow so I ran a faster 9 today. Felt good to be running sub 8 miles again.

Originally Posted by laura22

any thought in what/when your next race will be?

Not yet. There is a newer marathon in la crosse (on Minnesota Wisconsin border) that looks easy but it's in may. That's a quick turnaround.

Thinking grandma's in Duluth in June.

Also thinking lakefront marathon in Milwaukee in October.

Gonna try to do some cross training in December. So probably after that I'll decide which of those I want to do.

Originally Posted by BTBaboon

Run went better than I could have wanted today. Ran at a 7:56 pace, which might be a PR for me

Really surprised myself.

Nice!

[laura22]

grandma's marathon!! that's on my longterm bucket list. supposed to be a fun one. the june date freaks me out tho. i hate heat

[mdel21]

That far north probably won't be hot. I've been up in northern Wisconsin at the end of June and it was 40 degrees every morning.

[blaise34]

Originally Posted by BTBaboon

Run went better than I could have wanted today. Ran at a 7:56 pace, which might be a PR for me

Really surprised myself.

Woo-hoo! Great stuff

[laura22]

nice job baboon!!! earning that pie

[Timebomb07]

Started my formal 'training' for my half. I'm mostly following this for cadence: https://www.halfmarathons.net/20-wee...ning-schedule/

Anyone have any pointers on running my longs on race day (Sundays) versus doing them on Saturdays? Does it really matter?

[laura22]

Originally Posted by Timebomb07

Started my formal 'training' for my half. I'm mostly following this for cadence: https://www.halfmarathons.net/20-wee...ning-schedule/

Anyone have any pointers on running my longs on race day (Sundays) versus doing them on Saturdays? Does it really matter?

nice! nah it doesn't really matter. just do what works best for your schedule. and you'll prob benefit from a recovery day after the long run days

[MDPrompter]

Originally Posted by Timebomb07

Started my formal 'training' for my half. I'm mostly following this for cadence: https://www.halfmarathons.net/20-wee...ning-schedule/

Anyone have any pointers on running my longs on race day (Sundays) versus doing them on Saturdays? Does it really matter?

I don’t think day matters as much as routine. Like don’t run on an empty stomach in training and then decide to down a bowl of oatmeal 45 min before race. I know that’s obvious but I did a half a few years back in ketosis and went a little heavy on exogenous ketones before the race which led to near disastrous stomach issues. Still got a PR but at the end it was probably the worst 15-20 minutes of my life

[buzz05232000]

Originally Posted by MDPrompter

I don’t think day matters as much as routine. Like don’t run on an empty stomach in training and then decide to down a bowl of oatmeal 45 min before race. I know that’s obvious but I did a half a few years back in ketosis and went a little heavy on exogenous ketones before the race which led to near disastrous stomach issues. Still got a PR but at the end it was probably the worst 15-20 minutes of my life

I’ve found that doing most of training runs “fasted” is okay as long as you incorporate fueling the last month of the training cycle.


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[MDPrompter]

Originally Posted by buzz05232000

I’ve found that doing most of training runs “fasted” is okay as long as you incorporate fueling the last month of the training cycle.


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If you actually get used to being in ketosis, you don’t even need fueling for a half. I’m a caffeine addict, so I made my own “gel” with coconut oil, Starbucks instant coffee, almond butter, and cocoa.

But overall I do perform better running with carbs and I think Keto was causing my hair to thin.

My brain works better in ketosis though and I miss that.