Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Here is my problem with this: Voracek led with his head. Kronwall didn't get airborne in order to make contact with his head nor did he lead with his elbow. He made a check on a guy who had his head down and was hunched over. Kronwall wasn't targeting his head. He simply hit the only thing he could have.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

He could have certainly gone shoulder to shoulder, or shoulder to the guys chest-pad and simultaneously making a poke check. Kronwall very clearly stands up slightly on Voracek as he makes the hit as well.

Doesn't matter one bit. The guy could be on his knees, doesn't mean you can still hit the head first when you clearly see him coming.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Apparently pretty goddamn low. :lol

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

How about having a little bit of personal responsibility and not skating completely irresponsibly (as some Flyers fans in here have conceded Voracek does all the time)?

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Exactly!

I mean, it really isn't that hard to skate with your head up. And if you are facing a player like Kronwall who has a reputation of making monster hits, it is your responsibility to be mindful of what is happening around you. In addition, it is the duty of the coaching staff to remind you about that.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Thanks man, but typing from my phone right now. Will watch tomorrow and give a complete breakdown. I know you all can hardly wait... Haha ;)

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

How the hell could Kronwall have gone shoulder to shoulder/shoulder to chest with Voracek? I mean, I saw the hit and have watched the replay and I cannot conceive of a way Kronwall could've gone shoulder to shoulder. Voracek has a crazy amount of momentum and was skating at high speeds directly into Kronwall's path.

So since that couldn't happen, are you telling me that Kronwall should've just let the guy skate past unscathed because he wasn't paying attention to what is going on around him? Or should he have made a move with his stick and possibly tripped Voracek, causing his team to have to kill off a penalty?

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

He has to get lower, or throw a hip. No matter what he's not allowed to make contact to the head. You brought up high-sticking. The player has to keep control of his stick no matter what. The only exception is if a player is down on the ice. If a player is bent over driving to the net, you still can't hit him in the face. A player has to be in control of his body too. If hes bent over, you hit him from the side or you get lower.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Come on now. Personal responsibility? He's trying to play a puck that's bouncing off his stick and the boards. I'm sorry, playing hockey requires you to look down occasionally. Yes he put himself in a dangerous position but Kronwall needs to respect that and not try to knock him into next week.

Where in the rule book does it say that if you skate with your head down players can deliver a shot to your face? Yes, there are exceptions when players move their heads into hits. That is quite obviously not the case here. Voracek is looking back and down for the puck, and as soon as he turns his head to look forward he is blindsided. The slow-mo vid from nhl.com shows that his head stays at essentially the same position as Voracek makes his 2 or 3 strides before getting hit.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

This is actually not correct, which is why there was no penalty on the play. As I've already said, the rule has two parts, one of which addresses the hitter's intent.
See above.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Kronwall has plenty of options. His knees were bent but he could of easily got lower. He could of threw his hip at him. He could of played the puck. He could of let up on the hit. He is an NHL player probably been playing hockey for 25+ years. Hes not an amateur he knew what he was doing and he chose to hit him in the head.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

C'mon now. Look again. Kronwall instead of getting LOWER when he makes the hit, actually goes more upright. He's still not standing straight up, but he goes from in a low skating position to a more upright stance as he prepares to level Voracek.


I understand that there isn't A LOT Kronwall can do there, he's in a tough spot. But he had plenty of time to see Voracek skating in a vulnerable position and still delivered a headshot.

Facts:

Voracek DID NOT change the position of his head relative to his body immediately prior to the hit.

Kronwall saw Voracek skating toward him in a vulnerable position ~3 strides before the hit.

Kronwall still made the decision to skate toward Voracek and deliver a hit directly to Voracek's head


What am I missing?

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Voracek did not move at the last second. Kronwall had his face lined up with his should the entire time he was looking to hit him. That is clear intent. Just because it wasn't called doesn't make it legal. The ref at the was at the opposite blue line 50 ft behind Kronwall and he had no view of were contact was made. The other ref was on the opposite side of the ice near the goal line. Neither had a clear view of the hit.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

It was ruled a legal hit by the referee who was 30 feet away.

This argument is going to remain a polarizing issue. I think that Voracek maybe should've been paying more attention out there, especially considering that Kronwall is more than capable of laying out opponents who aren't mindful of their surroundings. He put himself in that situation, plain and simple. We could argue about how low Kronwall should've gotten and I understand the argument but my point of view is that Voracek lowered himself substantially and Kronwall would not have been able to make a shoulder-to-shoulder/shoulder-to-chest hit.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

That being said, I hate to see players get injured in these instances. I think we can all agree that hopefully Voracek can get back into the lineup ASAP.

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See my previous post. Both refs were in no position to make a call on a play that was going that fast. One ref was on the opposite blue line, and the other was across the ice deep into the zone. I agree Voracek put himself in a bad position, but that was not the time and place to teach him a lesson on keeping his head up.

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Unofficial word is he didn't receive a concussion. Stitches in the upper and lower mouth is what I heard so far. Hopefully he did learn a lesson here.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Good to hear. Don't want to see anyone seriously hurt.


Changing subjects, Todd McClellan just said "shitty" on TV during the postgame presser. Someone asked him about the Sharks' team shooting percentage, and he called it a shitty stat, then quickly realized what he'd done and apologized.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

imtoo drunk to barck read but fuck st lous
i

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

I'm not getting into the legality of the hit, but if Kronwall wants to hit people in the head he has to understand people will come for him and not be a bitch. I would expect any Flyer who delivered a hit like that to take the challenge of another teams player.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

I'm fine with the hit but kronwall needs to answer the bell after he throws a hit like that.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

First the hit. Brutal? Hell yeah. Suspendable? Why? Elbow was in, puck was there, head was down. Primary contact was with the head but what else was gonna get hit? That's why the headshot rule isn't so black and white. He did not target the head by any means. (ie Cooke's elbow to Savard) Kronwall was supposed to let up and let him skate out of the zone? And going back to the Havlat hit 3 years ago he had his head down looking back for the puck. The stupid thing about that hit was that the puck was in his feet and I'm not sure what Kronwall was supposed to do on that one. The NHL really want to argue .5 seconds later that hit wouldn't have gotten 5 minutes? Would have been just as brutal had the puck been on Havlat's stick.

I agree with this 100%. When did because you hit guy hard did it mean you had to answer for it? Scott Stevens would have had to fight every game just because he was doing his job.
Why just because it was a big hit? Give me a break. I think it was clean and so did Kronwall so why should he have to answer for it. He didn't and the Flyers tried to start something and they got a penalty for it. Same thing happened when the Wings were playing the Hawks. Jamal Mayers was going after someone I don't remember I think it was Abdelkader or Smith because they hit Patrick Kane hard but it was clean without a doubt there. WTF? You hit my teammate hard so now you have to fight? If that's where we are going get rid of hitting. If it was a cheap shot I understand but it wasn't.

Here is the NHL Network talking about it last night.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...id=0&id=162762

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Also on Turco from Dreger:

Now if a team puts in a claim they really are dicks.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

He's not eligible for the playoffs for the bruins either.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

Oh wow didn't see the regular season part of that. Yea if someone claims him that's just a complete dick move. Only team that really has incentive to do it is Ottawa.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

My thoughts exactly, honestly, if I were any of the teams in the NE and had money to burn, I'd totally do it just to fuck em over.

And in regards to the Kronwall hit, as long as these gray areas are left in the game, there's always going to be controversy over hits the head. The NHL I think is going to have to make a hard decision to rule hits to the head completely out of the game if they really want to see a dramatic change in regards to these types of hits, regardless of who's fault it is. Sure there will be some backlash, but I'm guessing it will dramatically reduce the number of concussions being seen.

I was listening to the radio the other day in Pittsburgh and Mark Madden was interviewing Paul Bissonette. Biznasty brought up some good points in regards to fighting in the league. Since it has somewhat dimished in recent years and the idea of having a goon on your roster is becoming a thing of the past, he believes that the lack of a heavyweight presence on the ice is contributing to this bad hits/cheap shots going on in the league. Said that before, you thought twice about doing something like that because if you did, you know that some guy's 10 lb fist would be going through your jaw. It was an interesting take on it, one that most aren't exposed to unless you've played the game yourself, which I have not.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

And that's just another reason why the rule is dumb. The not being eligible for Boston in the playoffs since he signed after the deadline I sorta get but what if they seriously needed him? The whole waivers thing is dumb too and I go back to Nabokov last year. The Wings needed him and the last place Islanders took him after already trading away Roloson early in the year. Just don't like how one team does all the work and the player wants to sign there and some team can just take them. I understand the reasoning behind the rule but clearly the Nabokov signing and this one are not cap circumvention.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

But see the goons were going away towards the end of the 90's too and there weren't as many hits like now, at least I don't remember them. I'm fine with tough guys but guys like Twist and Chase and Grimson were friggin useless as hockey players. Kocur back in the day was too. He was the perfect grinder though when he came back to Detroit in 97. He fought but he played a role too. McCarty was the same way. These guys played checking roles as well as would make your answer for it. Probert was actually a pretty decent player and would score 40-50 points but his primary role was if you go after Stevie Y I'll kill you.

Oh and for Biznasty he needs to get on TSN, CBC or NBC. He's very intelligent and would make a great commentator.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

First and foremost. Great win for the Flyers versus a super skilled team. Even if they were missing 17 all stars. The Wings are still winning and still are where they are with those guys that are playing. I know the Wings don't play as well on the road as they do at home. But the Flyers don't play well at home this year either. Great two points for the orange and black. Giroux has cracked the top 200 in my opinion with his performance last night.

As for the other big story: Bryzgalov may be back! What a clutch final two periods and great final minute. Refreshing the last two weeks to not think that every shot coming his way is going in...

Oh, and the hit... I'm in the clean hit, what else was Kronwall going to do(?) camp. I mean Voracek does skate with his head down all the time. I get that he was looking back to gather the puck and he saw that Kronwall backed up one step before looking down. But the hit was clean. There was no intent to take his head off. If Voracek's head is up, he probably moves a bit to the left or right and Kronwall still cleans his clock shoulder to shoulder or shoulder to chest. There was no malice. It was a vicious, vicious hit. The result of the play may get Kronwall a fine and/or game suspension because he could have let up on the check a bit. But I think it's a hockey check that just went wrong.

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 

The first part, the Fox Detroit guys were listing off the injured players for both teams and damn you could fill out a roster with those guys alone it seems. And a pretty damn good one too. Lidstrom, Pronger, Timmonen, Ericsson on D. Not bad.

Bryz did make some good saves. I thought Filppula had tied it with 45 seconds to go.

I hope he doesn't get suspended for the result because that's leading us down a dangerous road. Watching the video, Kronwall actually seemed like he waited for Voracek to get the puck. He could have destroyed him even more had he not. Reading an article on mlive.com about it some of players were saying they wanted to see a replay before really commenting on it but Briere said he wanted to puke because of the aftermath and I think we all agree there. I think part of that might have been from Voracek's head hitting the ice. It was not pretty to see that.