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monkeyman68 03-06-2012 11:03 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13408990)
That hasn't been always "what you do." In the past 5-6 years, the whole "I want to fight you for delivering a clean hit on my teammate" mentality has gotten out of control. And to be honest, wanting fighting but asking if maybe Kronwall didn't have to hit him so hard, seems kind of contradictory.

Good point

hoke2007 03-06-2012 11:05 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Crashintome89~ (Post 13408971)
Because that's what you do. Why is it that the NHL is the only sport out of the major four where fighting is allowed? Because that's how it is. That's what the players do.

I'm just not believing the argument that Kronwall couldn't separate his man from the puck without taking his head off. He could have--but he always looks for blood. He almost got Schenn about a minute before he got Voracek too.

Maybe that's because people don't pay attention. It's a well known fact that Kronwall is capable of delivering massive hits. With that in mind, players should know where he is on the ice in relation to themselves. If they choose not to, fine. But don't tell me that Kronwall deserves to get punished because Voracek was skating with his head down.

I understand your frustration because I know that I would be saying the same stuff if it was one of the Wings players that got laid out. All I'm saying is that while Kronwall can deliver a dirty hit on occasion, this hit was pretty damn clean from where I'm standing.

fonzz41 03-06-2012 11:06 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Can't wait to watch this Kronwall hit... You know I'll chime in once I do ;)

In other news, how bout Avery getting kicked off the Whale? Long time coming.

efraser77 03-06-2012 11:08 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 13409023)
Can't wait to watch this Kronwall hit... You know I'll chime in once I do ;)

In other news, how bout Avery getting kicked off the Whale? Long time coming.

It's on Puck Daddy:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...qeZNftL645nYcB

Bron Yr Aur 03-06-2012 11:27 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoke2007 (Post 13408989)
He would've been blindsided by Kronwall no matter if he got hit from the front or the side. He wasn't paying attention. Are you telling me that Kronwall should've let the guy essentially skate past him with the puck because he wasn't as alert as he should've been?

Ok fine, you think that Kronwall should drop his gloves every time he lays out someone who isn't paying attention. I just don't agree with it. He did nothing wrong on this hit and shouldn't have to defend the hit. He shouldn't have to penalize his team because he hit a guy who had no idea of his surroundings and therefore has to fight to defend his honor.

Look. He skates HARD right into a guy who doesn't see him coming. Yes, obviously Voracek certainly put himself in a vulnerable position there. Absolutely. That doesn't give a guy license to run him over, starting with the head. Even if he looks up, he's still going to take that one face first, though.

The problem I have is that he could have easily used his stick to poke that puck back in while still making enough contact to separate Voracek from the puck. Instead, he makes no play on the puck at all, instead choosing to run the kid down.

Bron Yr Aur 03-06-2012 11:30 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409029)

This is an interesting take....but I kind of disagree.

The author argues that this kind of hit should remain in the game. But I'm not so sure. If we are going to continue to see so many players going down with concussions, and going down for long periods of time....I'm not so sure that is good for the game at all. If players are having health problems down the road because of this stuff....then that is bad for the game and the people who play it.

People talk about parents potentially preventing their kids from playing football because of the talk of head injuries. Same goes for hockey. That's a sure way to make this even more of a niche sport.

ds80mx 03-06-2012 11:33 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6020/hitv.jpg

Illegal Check to the Head A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted.

If you don't think you think this is an illegal/dirty hit then you are crazy. It was a clear shoulder to his face. It doesn't matter if Voracek had his head down. I'm a hockey player, and I live off of people skating with their head down. But that doesn't give you a right to blast him in the face. Kronwall had every right to hit him, but it is never excusable to have the head as the principle point of contact.
I'm a Flyer fan and I agree that Voracek is asking to be nailed skating around the ice like that, especially with Kronwall on the ice. Kronwall has got to lower his body and make contact with to his shoulder or chest. Kronwall was standing straight up when he hit him, he made no attempt to lower himself to prevent contact to the head.

Bron Yr Aur 03-06-2012 11:38 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409092)
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6020/hitv.jpg

Illegal Check to the Head A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted.

If you don't think you think this is an illegal/dirty hit then you are crazy. It was a clear shoulder to his face. It doesn't matter if Voracek had his head down. I'm a hockey player, and I live off of people skating with their head down. But that doesn't give you a right to blast him in the face. Kronwall had every right to hit him, but it is never excusable to have the head as the principle point of contact.
I'm a Flyer fan and I agree that Voracek is asking to be nailed skating around the ice like that, especially with Kronwall on the ice. Kronwall has got to lower his body and make contact with to his shoulder or chest. Kronwall was standing straight up when he hit him, he made no attempt to lower himself to prevent contact to the head.

All around good post :thumbsup

efraser77 03-06-2012 11:38 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409092)
http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6020/hitv.jpg

Illegal Check to the Head A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted.

If you don't think you think this is an illegal/dirty hit then you are crazy. It was a clear shoulder to his face. It doesn't matter if Voracek had his head down. I'm a hockey player, and I live off of people skating with their head down. But that doesn't give you a right to blast him in the face. Kronwall had every right to hit him, but it is never excusable to have the head as the principle point of contact.
I'm a Flyer fan and I agree that Voracek is asking to be nailed skating around the ice like that, especially with Kronwall on the ice. Kronwall has got to lower his body and make contact with to his shoulder or chest. Kronwall was standing straight up when he hit him, he made no attempt to lower himself to prevent contact to the head.

Yes it does. Targeting the head =/= a shoulder check to a guy who isn't looking where he was going.

monkeyman68 03-06-2012 11:41 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409114)
Yes it does. Targeting the head =/= a shoulder check to a guy who isn't looking where he was going.

But....But....But it is Kronwall's fault that Voracek likes to skate with his head down!!!1!

ds80mx 03-06-2012 11:44 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409114)
Yes it does. Targeting the head =/= a shoulder check to a guy who isn't looking where he was going.

What are you trying to say?

efraser77 03-06-2012 11:46 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409128)
What are you trying to say?

I am trying to say that it most certainly does matter that Voracek wasn't paying attention to where he was going, as you yourself said he does all the time.

How low does the rule book say Kronwall should have gone in his attempt to avoid Voracek's head?

efraser77 03-06-2012 11:51 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
And with respect to your screenshot, what I see is:

1) Voracek is VERY low
2) Voracek was looking way off the other way when contact was made
3) Kronwall may not be that low, but is most certainly not going high or standing up particularly straight

Bron Yr Aur 03-06-2012 11:55 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409133)
I am trying to say that it most certainly does matter that Voracek wasn't paying attention to where he was going, as you yourself said he does all the time.

How low does the rule book say Kronwall should have gone in his attempt to avoid Voracek's head?

It doesn't. It just says he has to make an effort to avoid it and he did not.

I mean, lost in all of this is the fact that Voracek is trying to make a play on the puck, and it is in his feet. If Kronwall had actually made any attempt to play the puck with his stick, his shoulder would have been much lower and it may have been a shoulder --> chest hit. Instead, he skates in with his stick horizontal and tries to knock the living daylights out of a guy, puck be damned.

ds80mx 03-06-2012 11:55 PM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409133)
I am trying to say that it most certainly does matter that Voracek wasn't paying attention to where he was going, as you yourself said he does all the time.

How low does the rule book say Kronwall should have gone in his attempt to avoid Voracek's head?

I agree with you Kronwall had every right to hit him. But he doesn't have a right to make contact right to the head. Some players have to be taught a lesson about keeping their head up. I gave that lesson to many of people. But it still has to be a clean hit. How low should he go? As low as he has to to avoid the head. Me, I probably would of put a huge hip check on him and sent him flipping through the head. But a clean hit to chest or shoulder would have been perfectly fine, and legal. If he would have laid down a clean shoulder to shoulder check, Voracek still could have gotten injured. And I'm fine with that, that'll happen when you skate with your head down.

ds80mx 03-07-2012 12:01 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409144)
And with respect to your screenshot, what I see is:

1) Voracek is VERY low
2) Voracek was looking way off the other way when contact was made
3) Kronwall may not be that low, but is most certainly not going high or standing up particularly straight

1. Yes he was, and looking at the video again he didn't duck down right before he got hit. He skated for at least 2 strides in that same position. If he would of ducked his head at the very last minute then Kronwall wouldn't of have any chance to avoid the hit.

2. Yeah he was skating with his head down with the puck on his stick, he was asking to be hit. But still doesn't make it legal to hit him in the head.

3. He could of easily lowered his shoulder more to prevent contact to the head. Like I said, Voracek didn't make a last second move and lower his head, it was was down the whole time.

efraser77 03-07-2012 12:02 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409159)
I agree with you Kronwall had every right to hit him. But he doesn't have a right to make contact right to the head. Some players have to be taught a lesson about keeping their head up. I gave that lesson to many of people. But it still has to be a clean hit. How low should he go? As low as he has to to avoid the head. Me, I probably would of put a huge hip check on him and sent him flipping through the head. But a clean hit to chest or shoulder would have been perfectly fine, and legal. If he would have laid down a clean shoulder to shoulder check, Voracek still could have gotten injured. And I'm fine with that, that'll happen when you skate with your head down.

The rule you posted has two parts. The head has to be the principle point of contact, and the player has to have targeted the head. Kronwall did not target Voracek's head. Therefore, it *was* a clean hit.

And Bron, how do you gauge "an effort" to avoid the head? Further, how many times have you seen a guy try to play the puck, miss, and watch the other guy skate off on an odd-man rush? Kronwall took the body, which is what he was probably taught to do. It was a legal check because the opponent was playing the puck, and he did not target the head. The head just got real low and found Kronwall's shoulder.

I am not a Kronwall fan nor a Wings fan. I'm mildly partial to the Flyers as I have family in the Philly area. But Kronwall did nothing wrong there. The fault lies in Voracek not taking responsibility and being aware of his surroundings.

monkeyman68 03-07-2012 12:02 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409159)
I agree with you Kronwall had every right to hit him. But he doesn't have a right to make contact right to the head. Some players have to be taught a lesson about keeping their head up. I gave that lesson to many of people. But it still has to be a clean hit. How low should he go? As low as he has to to avoid the head. Me, I probably would of put a huge hip check on him and sent him flipping through the head. But a clean hit to chest or shoulder would have been perfectly fine, and legal. If he would have laid down a clean shoulder to shoulder check, Voracek still could have gotten injured. And I'm fine with that, that'll happen when you skate with your head down.

Don't hit him in the head but flip him so that he lands on his head

Makes sense

efraser77 03-07-2012 12:03 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409169)
1. Yes he was, and looking at the video again he didn't duck down right before he got hit. He skated for at least 2 strides in that same position. If he would of ducked his head at the very last minute then Kronwall wouldn't of have any chance to avoid the hit.

2. Yeah he was skating with his head down with the puck on his stick, he was asking to be hit. But still doesn't make it legal to hit him in the head.

3. He could of easily lowered his shoulder more to prevent contact to the head. Like I said, Voracek didn't make a last second move and lower his head, it was was down the whole time.

Simply hitting someone's head is not, in and of itself, illegal. See previous post.

efraser77 03-07-2012 12:05 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyman68 (Post 13409173)
Don't hit him in the head but flip him so that he lands on his head

Makes sense

:lol I thought the same thing.

Bron Yr Aur 03-07-2012 12:05 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409172)
The rule you posted has two parts. The head has to be the principle point of contact, and the player has to have targeted the head. Kronwall did not target Voracek's head. Therefore, it *was* a clean hit.

And Bron, how do you gauge "an effort" to avoid the head? Further, how many times have you seen a guy try to play the puck, miss, and watch the other guy skate off on an odd-man rush? Kronwall took the body, which is what he was probably taught to do. It was a legal check because the opponent was playing the puck, and he did not target the head. The head just got real low and found Kronwall's shoulder.

I am not a Kronwall fan nor a Wings fan. I'm mildly partial to the Flyers as I have family in the Philly area. But Kronwall did nothing wrong there. The fault lies in Voracek not taking responsibility and being aware of his surroundings.

I view this much differently from you. To me, when Kronwall sees a guy skating toward him in a low position, and still makes a concerted run at him and delivers a high hit with his shoulder, with out attempting to make any play at all on a loose puck, that is making a decided effort to target the head.

You can still take the body while having your stick on the ice to make a play for the puck.

Jsweeney 03-07-2012 12:14 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Being at the game, everyone saw the hot coming except voracek.
Direct contact to the head should be a penalty.
If hits to the head are penalties or fines, this was definitely one of them

efraser77 03-07-2012 12:18 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bron Yr Aur (Post 13409182)
I view this much differently from you. To me, when Kronwall sees a guy skating toward him in a low position, and still makes a concerted run at him and delivers a high hit with his shoulder, with out attempting to make any play at all on a loose puck, that is making a decided effort to target the head.

You can still take the body while having your stick on the ice to make a play for the puck.

But it wasn't even a high hit. Go to the Puck Daddy post, watch the very last angle on the top video (ice-level, from behind Voracek, with the ref staring right at the play). Kronwall is somewhat hunched, knees slightly bent, legs apart. Does he take advantage of the fact that Voracek isn't paying attention? Maybe. But I don't think that equates to targeting the head.

Also, as I think Matt mentioned, if the guy you're playing against is so known as a hard hitter that his name has actually become a verb that means, "hit really fucking hard," maybe keep that in mind when you're on the ice.

ds80mx 03-07-2012 12:18 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409175)
Simply hitting someone's head is not, in and of itself, illegal. See previous post.

I don't understand how you can see his head wasn't targeted. It was a straight shoulder to head hit. Voracek didn't move at the last second, from the time Kronwall lined him up he or Voracek didn't change position. The second part of the rule has to deal with a player who moves at the last second.

whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

If Voracek moved his head right into Kronwalls shoulder at the last second, then that part would apply. But from the start Kronwall's shoulder was going straight for the head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyman68 http://antsmarching.org/forum/images...s/viewpost.gif
Don't hit him in the head but flip him so that he lands on his head

Makes sense

It may not be the safest thing to do, but hip checks are legal. Voracek put himself in a bad position. If he had been been hip checked, he would at least have a chance to catch himself with his hands while coming down preventing serious injury. A shoulder to the head at speed is a lot more damaging. This is hockey, it a game with risks. Voracek put himself in a bad position, but to possibly end someone's career and a chance affecting him the rest of his life with a head shot that could of been avoided is not right.

hoke2007 03-07-2012 12:23 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409159)
I agree with you Kronwall had every right to hit him. But he doesn't have a right to make contact right to the head. Some players have to be taught a lesson about keeping their head up. I gave that lesson to many of people. But it still has to be a clean hit. How low should he go? As low as he has to to avoid the head. Me, I probably would of put a huge hip check on him and sent him flipping through the head. But a clean hit to chest or shoulder would have been perfectly fine, and legal. If he would have laid down a clean shoulder to shoulder check, Voracek still could have gotten injured. And I'm fine with that, that'll happen when you skate with your head down.

Kronwall would've had to nearly get on his knees in order to make a hit to Voracek's chest. Voracek was very low and was leading with his head. I just cannot comprehend a scenario where Kronwall could've hit Voracek in the chest.

ds80mx 03-07-2012 12:24 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409206)
But it wasn't even a high hit.

Ask yourself this question. Did Kronwall's shoulder hit the highest part of Voracek's body (his head)?

I think it is pretty clear it did. How is that not a high hit then.

Taller players like Chara have to take consideration of their height when hitting smaller players. If your 6 inches taller than another player and your shoulder is the height of his head, your still not allowed to make direct contact to the head.

Jsweeney 03-07-2012 12:24 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Then don't make the contact.
Same premise as not hitting from behind.
If your only target is the head, don't hit it.

efraser77 03-07-2012 12:26 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoke2007 (Post 13409213)
Kronwall would've had to nearly get on his knees in order to make a hit to Voracek's chest. Voracek was very low and was leading with his head. I just cannot comprehend a scenario where Kronwall could've hit Voracek in the chest.

Again we find ourselves in complete agreement. That's why I asked how low one is required to go to avoid hitting the head.

Bron Yr Aur 03-07-2012 12:27 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by efraser77 (Post 13409206)
But it wasn't even a high hit. Go to the Puck Daddy post, watch the very last angle on the top video (ice-level, from behind Voracek, with the ref staring right at the play). Kronwall is somewhat hunched, knees slightly bent, legs apart. Does he take advantage of the fact that Voracek isn't paying attention? Maybe. But I don't think that equates to targeting the head.

Also, as I think Matt mentioned, if the guy you're playing against is so known as a hard hitter that his name has actually become a verb that means, "hit really fucking hard," maybe keep that in mind when you're on the ice.

He sees Voracek coming up ice with his head in relatively the same position for a couple of strides. I realize this is a fast fucking game, but the onus is on Kronwall to lessen that hit and contact another part of his body first. That's just the way it is.

How about having a little bit of respect for your fellow player? I think it's laughable that people can say "well he put his head down" or that Kronwall didn't target the head. Give me a goddamn break. The guy does this again, and again, and again. He knows that the guys head is down for a few strides but he does nothing to avoid a dead-on collision between his shoulder and the kid's head.

efraser77 03-07-2012 12:28 AM

Re: NHL 2011/2012 Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ds80mx (Post 13409214)
Ask yourself this question. Did Kronwall's shoulder hit the highest part of Voracek's body (his head)?

I think it is pretty clear it did. How is that not a high hit then.

Taller players like Chara have to take consideration of their height when hitting smaller players. If your 6 inches taller than another player and your shoulder is the height of his head, your still not allowed to make direct contact to the head.

What? If the highest part of Voracek's body is 12-15 inches lower than it normally is, what is Kronwall supposed to do? Again, as I said earlier, it's a tad bit similar to high-sticking. A stick hitting a face is not a penalty if the face is low enough.


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