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This just shows how little you understand about the game. That wouldn't be a problem if you were more like guys like Chad that wanted to learn instead of being incredibly stubborn in your ignorant opinions. You know who starts shit the most that would just run around like crazy without fighting? Dickwads like Burrows, Marchand, P.K. Subban, etc. Most teams (except maybe the Blackhawks and Red Wings) have agitators that would just take liberties at guys like Toews, Kane, Datsyuk, etc. It's amazing how many people get up in arms when someone takes shots at Jonathan Toews or Sidney Crosby, but then want fighting out of the game. You think Q chose to run with Bollig instead of Jeremy Morin because Bollig is a better hockey player than Morin? People who understand the game see the benefit of it, which should say something to you. Instead of having such a strong opinion against something that you admittedly don't fully understand, maybe the stance to take is honestly trying to understand why guys like Bollig earn a roster spot over talent like Pirri and Morin. |
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Chris, guys like Toews and Crosby and Kane are protected by the rulebook. Fighting is usually retaliatory in nature. It seems to most often occur after somebody lights up the opposing team's player and that team takes offense, so I have a hard time believing it "prevents" much of anything. And yet, we often complain about players starting fights after clean hits. We all hate that. So doesn't this kind of indicate that the players are somewhat shitty at policing themselves? Stricter penalty calls and stricter suspensions do much more to discouraging reckless hits and cheap shots. Teams will quickly realize to dump the guys who commit cheap shots when they are having to kill penalty after penalty night after night.
Like Matty said, the pure enforcers are declining but they are taking on new forms. I get that many players may feel better that they have a heavy-hitter or at least a couple of guys who are competent fighters to back them up. What I disagree with is the idea that without it, the game would be less entertaining and less safe. To me, I would much rather see no fighting in the game and then maybe I get to watch a more talented player like Jeremy Morin or Brandon Pirri on the Hawks as opposed to Bollig (who is not a terrible player but like you said, the reason he is on the roster is obvious). |
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Less Bron, more Fonzz
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Part 2: Why Do Players Fight?
While there are no proven facts to support this, I think the selfless nature of hockey was fostered on the frozen backyard rinks in Canada where the game really took root. Many of the earliest players came from humble backgrounds, growing up in rural environments where families and friends looked out for each other, and where disputes were often settled physically and forgotten about before dinnertime. One of the biggest reasons I’ve stayed a fan of this game (note I said “this game”, not JUST the NHL) my whole life is because of the team-first attitude exhibited by 95% of the players. It’s what motivates a defenseman to lay down in front of a puck travelling 100 mph. It’s what motivates a forward to go into the corner after a puck knowing he’s going to get drilled. And yes, it’s what motivates a player to step in for his teammate and bruise up his face and knuckles. You will rarely find the consistency of selfless acts in other sports that you find in hockey. That has cultivated a whole culture that has carried on until today. As was mentioned before, there used to be one – sometimes two – goons on every roster. Their goal was two-fold: protection and intimidation. For the perfect example, look no further than Marty McSorley and Wayne Gretzky. Inheriting the role of Gretzky’s “bodyguard” from Dave Semenko, wherever Wayne went, McSorley wasn’t far behind. It was a true deterrent, as guys knew if they messed with the Great One, they were going to get it from Marty. The dynamic worked so well that the Kings acquired him along with Gretzky in “The Trade”, where he continued to protect teammates while actually becoming a decent 5/6 defenseman in the process. People point to the fact that Gretzky didn’t get nailed a lot because of a) his speed – guys couldn’t catch him, and b) the respect players had for him (much like Yzerman, Lidstrom, and Sakic), but I think a pretty good “c” option could be added that points to McSorley. While the role of goon isn’t as defined as it was in McSorley’s day, the same concept still exists, and it hails back to hockey’s roots: players stick up for each other. Fighting allows players to police the game in a deeper sense than penalties. Marty, you were right in saying that penalties police the game: A player commits an infraction, he is penalized by a league-employed and mandated referee. He serves his time in the penalty box, and then returns to the game. However, fighting takes it to a deeper level that some here have brought up: It’s personal. It’s one team sending a message to the other that they will not accept liberties being taken with their teammates. They are not relying on a third party to step in and hand out infractions, they are taking care of it themselves. If a player cheap shots a player on another team, he will most certainly have to answer to that team. They know that they are free to elbow Gabriel Landeskog in the head, but they also know full well that if they do, they will to answer McLeod, Steve Downie, or any other number of players who jump to his defense. Then, after the score is settled via a bout, both parties move on. In this sense I’ve also experienced it dam aggressions before they get too out of control: Things are getting chippy, cheap shots ensue, and finally two players fight. Then, after the fight, things calm down. The score was settled, and both teams moved on with the game. Does it completely take cheap shots out of the game? No, but I am both interested and scared at the same time to see what the league would be like without it. There is also the subject of the intangible increase in motivation that can result after a fight. Hard to explain, but there’s something encouraging and inspiring when you witness one of your teammates making the ultimate hockey sacrifice of getting pounded in the face for you. As morbid as that may sound, it inspires you to want to play better – to live up and honor their sacrifice. Yes Marty, goals can inspire, but when you see one of your guys giving their all in a situation like that, it makes you want to do the same in whatever your role is on the team. If you’re a scorer, it inspires to go out and work your ass of to score. If you play defense, it makes focus that much more on shutting down the offense. And so on. Finally, while I understand the point of the “putting butts in the seat” argument, I don’t lend it as much credence as the others I’ve just presented. Yes, there are many casual fans that love to see a good fight, but I’ve heard just as many that find it disgusting. Does it amp up a crowd, which can impact a home team’s performance? You bet. But does it actually increase ticket sales? I’m not sure. Thanks for putting up with me on this. While this focused on why players fight, my final part will focus on why I think hockey should remain a part of the game. |
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No offense Bron, but I may have to sig this. |
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Completely agree that it helps restore order when things get chippy which is arguably safer than allowing a period to go by with tempers flaring.
The funny thing is that even if fighting were banned a hockey game can still get intense enough that guys would probably still end up doing it even if it meant a suspension or fine. |
Looks like I missed a great game last night. Oh well. Saving money every month with noooo cable lol
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Matty pointing out McSorley's "role" I also wanted to through it out there that today's enforcers like Scott and Parros don't do anything. Mac could play. Bob Probert played in at least one allstar game. Sure they played with Gretz and Stevie Y respectively but you still gotta have some skill to be able to do that. I'm not really sure why guys like Scott are still around.
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Agreed, Clarkson, Cooke, Hartnell, etc can do hockey things. Scott, Rosehill, Parros, etc cannot.
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With the evolution we've been discussing, guys like Parros and Biz will be out of jobs. It's unfortunate because they are not bad people, but there's simply no room for them in the game and on rosters. Going back to the Avs, why would they need Pete Worrell on their roster when they've got Cody McLeod, who's just as willing a combatant (although not as big) but can also keep up defensively and pot a few goals? |
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Part 3: Why Fighting Should Stay
Most of my points regarding this section have been covered in my last post, so this will be more of a conclusion. I mentioned in my first post that fighting is not an integral part of the game like scoring, passing, etc. However, does it belong in the game? I contend that yes, it absolutely does. I believe that there is something inherently noble in the majority of hockey fights. Yes, some are stupid thoughtless acts, but most are done in the interest of standing up for the brothers on a team. Do they need to necessarily fight to send a message or stand up for each other? Not really. Sometimes a well-placed hit (Ference on Steve Ott… remember that gem!) or a timely goal can send a powerful message. But if it comes down to physically challenging an opponent to fisticuffs, that should be allowed. As I said, it is both inspiring and noble to make that sort of sacrifice for your team or a specific teammate. Why are people like my lover Adam Foote so respected as leaders? Because Adam Foote would make that sacrifice for anyone on his team. He would fight for Joe Sakic as quickly as he’d fight for Shjon Podein. Again, there’s something noble about that. I also admire the respect that goes into a hockey fight. The majority of the time, there is little real malice involved, and both players maintain a healthy dose of respect for each other as they follow the mysterious and un-documented “Code”: Taking on guys your own size (unless you’re name is John Scott), backing off from a fight if the opponent is injured or “done”, leaving it on the ice, etc. It’s fascinating to me how hockey players respect each other and the game enough to leave it on the ice and shake hands after. Sure, there are some bone headed going-ons sometimes, but they are the exception rather than the norm. In regards to the respect factor, look no further than last night’s fight between Orr and Parros. In most cases outside of hockey, what would happen between two combatants if one fell on his face and was defenseless? The one still standing would probably take advantage of the situation and keep going. It was encouraging to me to see the look of concern on Orr's face as he immediately stopped, you could see him kind of saying something to Parros to see if he was alright, then quickly getting to his feet and calling for refs and med staff. You just don’t see that anywhere else. I also remember the clip of a fighter KO-ing another, then grabbing his sweater as he fell to to prevent his helmetless head from hitting the ice. And let's not forget that famous moment of Chara, kneeling over a fallen and beaten Lecavalier, fist raised ready to deliver a crushing blow that never happened. Hell, I’ve seen guys actually shake hands after a fight. They do it and they move on. They understand they are not bigger than the game and are willing to leave it at that. Yes, fighting is part of hockey’s culture, but I think leaving it at that is doing a disservice to hockey culture. SELFLESSNES is part of hockey’s culture, and that manifests itself sometimes through fighting. If fighting is banned, it in some ways inhibits players from expressing that type of selflessness and devotion to each other that makes this game so great. Fighting overall is going down in the league, and if players choose to simply not fight any more, so be it. But I contend that a league mandated ban on fighting would be more detrimental to the culture of hockey than helpful. I hope this helps, and I apologize for the length. It’s a huge issue right now in our sport, and instead of just providing little snippets of my opinions, I felt at least once I had to give this a more full treatment. Marty and others who don’t like fighting: I don’t expect this to suddenly change your mind, but I hope it helps you see where I come from in wanting fighting to remain a part of the game. |
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Good stuff Matty, enjoyed reading that, agree completely.
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I forgot you've been playing. How is that going? |
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Only bad part is last week there was an unintentional collision and I took an awkward fall near the boards and whacked my head pretty good. Pretty sure I was concussed so I'm taking a few weeks off since that's what ended my high school playing days. |
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Here's the whole fighting "essay" in spoiler tags to cut down on size.
Click the "Show Spoiler" Button to reveal hidden text.
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There are always a few duds in men's league -- the guys who swear they should've made the NHL but someone cut their road short. But for the most part, there are few places where you'll find more camaraderie than on a hockey team. Glad you were able to find that. :thumbsup |
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:lol agree. I'd say every team has one guy bitching at the refs, teammates, etc. but everyone else is awesome.
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Now that I'm back in Knoxville where there are more ice rinks, I'm thinking of doing what I was talking about a few months ago and starting up ice skating lessons so I can join some sort of beginner old men's league. It's something I've been wanting to do for a little while now.
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I hate when apps change settings with an update. Got a notifciation about a tweet from Dreger and I don't have that on my settings. However...glad it did it here since it's on a topic we've been talking about today.
http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/darren_dreger/?id=433262 |
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Yzerman, Rutherford, and Shero disagree with me. I understand and am not dismissing their concerns.
http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/darren_dreger/?id=433262 Interesting fact made at the end of the article though... 98% of players in 2011-12 wanted fighting to remain. EDIT: Tim, great minds think alike :lol |
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Stevie makes a point about head shots though. We say you can't target the head with a hit, but you can punch the crap out of it though. |
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It certainly is an incredible thing, how hockey teams bond. I've played on men's league basketball and softball teams as well, nothing is quite like how hockey players bond over a short time. I don't know what it is, but the sport just makes friends quicker than anything I've ever experienced. Good call with your concussion too. The last one I had really was not good, and I just shook it off and finished the game. It was a horrible decision, I knew I was concussed as soon as it happened, and yet I finished the game anyway. Looking back, I thank God something didn't go horribly wrong that day, as I really put myself in real danger...very smart what you're doing. Quote:
There's stuff like this all over the internet: http://www.reddit.com/r/hockeyplayer...yk/just_do_it/ I know it might be a little intimidating at first, but you'll quickly find out how great of an idea it was to just push yourself to get there and start doing it. You'll be sitting here a year from now with the ability to play that game and it'll feel so incredible. |
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Just be patient and stick with it, Chad. Like Chris said, it'll pay off a million times later.
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Pick up these, and a cheap wood stick. Do this to your cheap hockey stick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQQcRWLTjoU (BTW, this guy has great videos for instructional purposes) And you're all set for playing outside. Those green biscuit pucks are incredible. Also, I'd recommend a power skating class pretty quick. Get the basics down first...like being able to stop on at least one side (skating/stopping is a lot like handedness, you'll always have a side that you're stronger on than the other just like your right/left hand. For both turns, pivots, stopping, etc. Get down at least your "dominant" side), being able to pivot to skate backwards, front cross overs, etc. and then get to a power skating class. You don't have to be great or even good at all that stuff, but just be able to handle it on a pretty basic level, and then taking a power skating class would be like turning on the Nitrous to your learning how to skate. You'll get a lot better a lot quicker. The key to developing yourself as a hockey player is to be able to skate first. Too many beginners just want to rip slapshots top shelf and bar down wristers. Worry about being the best skater you can be first and being able to handle the puck well. Next is passing, positioning, hockey IQ (i.e. reading plays and defenses, knowing when to pass and when to shoot), and THEN maybe worry about how hard and accurate you can shoot the puck. But skating. First learn how to skate. You'll be one of the best players in your beginner league if you're one of the best skaters. Easily. |
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I'm not really even sure where to start but I was thinking of just doing some basic ice skating lessons to get myself going. ^^^ Chris just solved that dilemma |
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Matty, great posts. I love your "history of fighting" and it's great to get that insight from someone who has been playing the game and involved in hockey for so long. I can try to understand where you are coming from because obviously I do not have the same perspective. And the fact is, if you are going to argue to get rid of fighting as a safety issue, then where do you stop. The next natural thing to eliminate is hitting, because there are many more hits per game and opportunities for concussions due to hits than there are fights. And I am not going to go that far and argue for eliminating hitting. But at the same time, eliminating fighting is one thing we can do to (very marginally) increase safety and at least maintain consistency when it comes to head injuries. And the fact is, it just seems odd that we accept fistfights in hockey but I think most of us would not accept it in almost any other situation. |
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Can't wait for Rivalry Night on NBCSN between the Wings and.....Sabres? Here we go again NBC. Call every Wednesday night game you have Rivalry Night and then have a game between these two. There are a number of teams the Wings could still be considered rivals with even though they haven't been in the East in 30 years. Habs, Leafs, Rangers, Bruins, Pens of course, Devils even. Hell the Blue Jackets. But the Sabres? Maybe hold off on the rivalry night stuff until there is an actual rivalry game on.
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:lol The Sabres are SO bad.
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So the Sabres are one team not happy the Wings are in the East.
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The Leafs are looking tired out there. They are mentally and physically tired after opening up the season in Montreal last night. Flyers are skating circles around them because of this.
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Remember when he win the Calder? Yeah me neither.
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Leafs did not look good tonight and in back to back nights start the season 2-0. That's fun and exciting!
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The Leafs played well tonight, don't know what you are talking about. Their defense, especially PK, was very good
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Leafs looked horrible in the first period. Vernier kept them in the game. I'm okay with the Flyers effort for the first game but they were once again stifled by a tight defense in the third. Laviolette and the team has to make adjustments. it didn't happen.
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Avs up 6-0 rift now on the Ducks. Mackinnon with 2 assists in a very complete game. Varlamov also looking way sharp. I'm always stickin up for this guy, and this is why. The defense still doesn't look great, but I have been impressed with the play of the forwards in their own zone. No one cheating.
Nice, Steve Downie jut got the Gordie Howe hat trick after fighting the much larger Getzlaf. |
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I was genuinely concerned for that cameraman's well-being. :lol |
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Nothing has changed with Patrick Roy... The guy just pushed the glass almost all the way over into Bruce Boudreau after a Ducks cheap shot on Mackinnon
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They gonna have to reinforce that shit.
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Roy gonna Roy. |
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:lol:lol dear god.
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The Avs game was a great case in point to my diatribe about fighting today. First off, a frustrated Getzlaf clearly instigates a fight with Downie. Not one to ever back down, Downie obliges even though Getzlaf has about 100 lbs on him, and does an admirable job. No instigator penalty is called. Then, During the last minute or so of play, Mackinnon gets nailed knee on knee by freaking Ben Lovejoy after Mac caught him flat-footed. No penalty called. Next, Boudreau puts his 4th line out for the final face off of the game, and sure enough, they start shit. The Avs respond with a vengeance, led by St. Patty himself, who just loses it on Boudreau and almost crushes him under a pane of glass.
In this instance, the Avs had to deal with things themselves after it became clear the refs wouldn't. They didn't kill anybody ( although I think Patrick would have), but they sent a message that "you aren't going to come into our house and pull that shit at the end of a 6-1 game." That message is indirectly relayed to other teams, fans, and the Avs themselves as to what their team is going to be like this year. I guarantee that end of the game unified the Avs like nothing else could. They proved they would stick up for each other, even down to the youngest rookie (Mackinnon). It is also inspiring to have a leader who you know has your back, and the Avs know they've got their guy in Roy. It's too early to get too excited yet, but the complete game played by the Avs tonight is very encouraging. |
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Colorado-St Louis-Chicago-Dallas all have the potential to be insane games, just in terms of stupid things happening
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I said it last year before the season, and I still think it. Colorado has the talent to make some noise. Not sure why things just didn't work out last year, maybe the O'Reilly stuff was too much preseason and they just didn't have time to get it together, I don't know...but it's a good team with lots of talent in the top 6. Add a guy with as much talent as MacKinnon...wow. Another thought, I watched the Avs broadcast of the game...I love Mike Haynes so much. What a great play-by-play guy. Also, MacKinnon is the real fuckin deal. Kid can play. Varlamov was incredible. Him and Bernier tonight were really great. |
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It sounds like Patrick Roy is doing the exact opposite of everything. VERY up-tempo practices, letting guys play to their strengths while still implementing a system that seemed to work last game, and holding guys accountable ("If you take dumb penalty, I crush you under dis glass"). With as young a team as the Avs have, it's crucial to establish an identity and stick with it. Practices need to be 110% effort. I was very vocal in my skepticism of the Roy hiring, but so far I'm preparing to eat the crow I said I would be willing to eat. By all accounts, his personality is looking to be just what this young crew needs. MacKinnon looked great. I loved how he just inserted himself into the game from the opening faceoff. He was going into the corners, calling for the puck, and hell, the kid almost fought! He sure made Jamie McGinn's night, who will probably go into Sakic's office this morning and kiss his feet. I may have to as well if he keeps this up. Their offense is so dangerous... I mean, Tanguay had 3 assists and Downie had a goal and an assist (after only playing 2 games last year). When those guys are contributing, things are good. Varlamov is the real deal. I keep saying it. The only thing that was unspectacular was the defense. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't great either. If they can tighten it up, watch out. Yeah, Haynes is great. I'm glad you noticed. McNabb (the color guy) is cool too. A little dramatic at times, but he knows the Avalanche organization backwards and forwards. Quote:
I guess Getzlaf didn't get my message about fighting within your weight class. Kudos to Downie for taking him on, but pussy move by Getzlaf. Must be watching John Scott film. |
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Oh man... if he's looking for a place to tear it up, I guess he's found it. Too bad it's Las Vegas and not our Utah Grizzlies. I would love to have the guy. |
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Another good example of fighting for a purpose was McLeod vs. Maroon last night (see the Pandora's box you opened, Bron, when you got me going on fighting?! :lol ).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCif-WQiPb4 The Avs were frustrated with the liberties the Ducks were taking on MacKinnon, so Cody McLeod decides to do something about it. Instead of letting a third party like the refs control things, the Avs themselves are sending a clear message that they will not tolerate that shit. Kudos to Maroon, who showed respect to McLeod by removing his helmet to level the playing field - despite it being against the stupidest rule in the game (tie with jersey tuck). A good bout ensues, and at the end, notice them actually congratulating each other as they separate. Message sent, move on with game. In that spirit, I'll try to finally move on from the fighting discussion :lol Oh, and just had to share this meme I saw on Twitter last night. This crew will appreciate it: https://twitter.com/hockeymemes/stat...333184/photo/1 EDIT: over/under on how much Roy's fine will be? |
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A couple oddities enforcing the two newest, and most head-scratching rules;
-In the Oilers game, Luke Gazdic clearly removed his own helmet before a fight - no penalty -Last night in Phi/Tor there were multiple times I saw Simmonds/Vinny and a couple others violating the jersey tuck rule. I saw Simmonds get 'warned' once, but that's it. So much for "aggressive enforcement" |
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I don't ever want to see a penalty called for that unless someone (Ovechkin) purposely tucks his sweater in and gives a big middle finger to the league/refs. |
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Message from BOBROVSKY!! and Mr. Universe:
DON'T PLAY GOAL IN PHILLY. |
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Oh man, that just reminded me how good BOBROVSKY is. So excited for tomorrow.
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got the devils coming into the CEC tonight, they handed the pens 25% of their losses last season :lol time to turn that shit around
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Glad to see it handled like that. I'm guessing the helmet thing will just take some getting used to looking for it/calling it. |
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So on the Roy stuff. I like his passion and glad he cares about his players, but that was over the top. I mean if that glass wasn't there would he have killed Bruce? Possibly. It should have been a penalty so I'm fine being upset but that was a little much. He also mentioned the 4th liners being out there but he was smart and had his out there too so if he was upset about that he knew it was coming, and sorry with that he doesn't have much of an argument because he made his own son go down the ice and get into a fight. Sacco might have lost control one way, but if Roy does that often, he could have his team just lose control. Don't want to end up like the Flames of 07 or Ducks of 09. Teams that played on the edge and often lost control.
But if he can gain a little control, I like that the team looked a lot better. That team was too good for too long to keep on sucking like this. |
Very excited to see how the Preds perform against STL tonight.
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I don't think it will be a regular occurrence. It's interesting though, all the players have talked about how much more accountable they are under Patrick. He holds their feet to the fire, especially for dumb penalties. Something Sacco never did (evidenced by the STUPID penalties they took all the time the last two seasons). As long as Roy can maintain what he's doing and not make blow ups a nightly occurrence, I think he'll be fine. I agree with you COMPLETELY that it's a fine balance of losing control of your team because of your own emotions, but I'm not concerned with what happened last night at all. Hell, the players had more composure than he did! EDIT: Forgot to mention: in his presser he totally didn't seem upset about ANA putting out their 4th line. He basically just said, "dey put out der 4th line, so what was I supposed to do, put out my first?" |
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Just looking through CBJ depth chart and seeing Ryan Murray was born in 1993, absurd.
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Also it looks like Boone Jenner might actually be starting on a line with Dubinsky and Gaborik. Can't believe he impressed that much in camp.
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Oh....wait...... :lorraine |
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1993...ugh. I hate seeing the tobacco and alcohol signs at the stores now. To buy tobacco you need to be born on or before this date in...1995. WHAT?
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I still remember the time I realized I was too old to make the NHL... :lorraine
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Is everyone here aware of how deep CBJ is at the blue line? It's really not even fair since nothing gets past BOBROVSKY anyways.
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10k fine for Roy.
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Thinking about making a Bluejackets thread so I can discuss games by myself in there this year. Thoughts?
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Having Seidenberg locked up for another 4 years is nice, but damn does Peter Chiarelli love to hand out NTC like they're candy.
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If you guys are bored, we're starting our 5th podcast today for my blog. Half hour long and starts in 7 minutes
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/realdea.../03/tcl-flyers |
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city has a little buzz going on after the opener last night. I'm not an Avs fan but a lot of my coworkers are. Everyone is really excited that Roy is back, and I think last night made it a little better.
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What's the O/U on how long Roy lasts? I'm thinking 60 games.
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Tuukka picking up right where he left off, looking solid!
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Ugh.......
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Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
Sorry for whoever has Rinne in fantasy..
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Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
Fleury is so clutch.
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Get Carter Hutton in there hahaha
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Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
Kings, Blues, and Hawks might be (probably are) the three best teams in the West. Vancouver/SJ are a step below and IMO those 5 are the class of the conference.
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Only thing I'm worried about is him going bankrupt after all the 10k fines he's about to get :lol |
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1) Chicago 2) Boston 3) St. Louis 4) L.A. 5) Columbus |
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Woo!!!! First game is a shootout win. I hate shootouts, unless my team wins.
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Disappointing performance tonight. Rinne looked awful but the whole defense looked terrible in the 1st.
Looking forward to the Avs tomorrow. |
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I think Chicago is the clear #1 (although that may be the homerism in me), and any of LA, St. Louis, and Boston can be any rank 2-4, depending on how I feel that day. Columbus being #5. I really am a fan of how Columbus is building their team. |
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Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
Thank god for CBJ starting tonight, a mere 24 hours after my NFL season was effectively ended. Should be a solid two weeks before I'm ready to bury them :lol
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