Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 15897894)

Uh oh, you knew I was gonna have to chime in on this one. :lol

But not really to rehash old arguments already made, but to point out the disappearance of the goon. The role of the goon has been diminishing for the past 2-3 seasons, but seemed to take a dramatic turn at the beginning of this season as you see virtually no "pure" enforcers on any roster. Guys like Parros and Biz Nasty found themselves without a team, while guys still with contracts like Orr and Bordeleau find themselves in the minors or the press box. Meanwhile, fighting continues, but by guys that can actually play regular minutes and would be in the lineup regardless of their fighting ability. Guys like Cody McLeod, who happens to be a valuable 3rd/4th liner who can skate and logs regular PK minutes.

I agree that having a goon on the roster dilutes the talent pool, but I would contend that that situation is quickly disappearing. Sure, there are still a couple pure "fighters" on a roster here and there. But for the most part, it's regular roster players. I just did a quick skim of all the rosters in the NHL, and I saw only a handful of guys who are there purely for their knuckles.

To the rest of your points, I agree with many of them. Especially the number of teams. I think this, more than the goon thing, dilutes talent. Would love to see even two less teams in the NHL.

Originally Posted by unccrombie (Post 15897896)

I feel like hockey definitely could work in Carolina.

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897910)

yea this is all fair. and i agree, the 30 teams is much worse for the talent than the fighting. and pure goons have started to go away THANK GOD, but the act of fighting itself is seriosuly unnecessary anymore. sometimes, there is a spontaneous, organic fight that truly does come naturally and it helps. but honestly, i've seen maybe 1 or 2 or those this year, and i watch a decent amount of hockey, not just penguins games. let's say i was conservative on that estimate and there were 12-15, purely organic fights that broke out, and actually served a purpose. i'd rather lose those 12-15 "good fights" if it meant the hundreds of other bullshit scraps went away too. but, that's just me.

Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 15897915)

Fans in Carolina were rabid for hockey...
...when the team was playing for the Cup.

Yeah, our differences in opinion on this are pretty well documented. Good thing there's plenty more we agree on to keep us from completely strangling each other. :lol

Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 15897915)

Fans in Carolina were rabid for hockey...
...when the team was playing for the Cup.

Yeah, our differences in opinion on this are pretty well documented. Good thing there's plenty more we agree on to keep us from completely strangling each other. :lol

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897925)

are you reveling in the Pens collapse? i kind of am

i would never root for my team to miss the playoffs, but this season is kind of different. they would get what they deserve and maybe serve as an eye-opener

might not be on ants for a while if they miss the playoffs though...think my PC would break from the flyers fans sending their philth my way

Originally Posted by Dramageek (Post 15897932)

Ottawa did them a favor by losing in OT. If they can scrape together a win on Tuesday, they are in. Though I'd put money on them going down in a first round sweep by Montreal or Tampa Bay. I am befuddled by their lack of ability to score goals or play anything resembling sound hockey.

Though with all the good recent regular seasons turning into playoff misery, maybe this is the year they win the Cup again! :lol

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897937)

also, i could see them getting their doors blown off in Ottawa tomorrow. Sens will be HYPED for that game

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897925)

are you reveling in the Pens collapse? i kind of am

i would never root for my team to miss the playoffs, but this season is kind of different. they would get what they deserve and maybe serve as an eye-opener

might not be on ants for a while if they miss the playoffs though...think my PC would break from the flyers fans sending their philth my way

Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 15897946)

It's sad to see, especially because I feel like the Pens made some pretty good roster choices this season. However, there's been some head-scratchers too... I don't know, I kinda feel like they just fall victim to the get-the-best-that's-available mentality, without any thought for team chemistry, fit of the player, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But yes, I do know how you feel in regards to the team missing the playoffs. I was so frustrated with the Avs the first half of the season, but now I'm more at peace as I think it's a necessary learning step for them. After the storybook success they had last year, this teaches them that real, sustained success comes at a price; you've got to sacrifice for it. They've learned that during the last half of the season and I can tell they've grown from it. But that it's too little too late will serve to be an even more painful learning experience that I think will benefit the team as a whole going forward.

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897953)

You're pretty much right, although I'm now 100% against the hiring of Jim Rutherford as GM. The Perron deal was great and I love him on Sid's wing. However, the Despres and Bortuzzo deals I did not like, and then he goes and screws up their salary cap so badly that they have to play with 5 defensemen for 2 weeks. That's inexcusable and embarrassing for a pro organization. They just stink all around. So much wasted talent

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897847)

i'll preface again by saying i think hockey is the purest, most exciting sport to watch and one of the hardest to play at a high level. the NHL also has the best playoffs of any other leagues IMO. However, what's wrong with the league:

1. Too many teams--30 teams is way too many. it dilutes the talent pool greatly. there would be even more parity if we had, say, 26-28 teams tops. Too many cities that won't ever care about hockey.
2. Fighting is legal--i won't get into the whole debate. i know a lot of ppl (cough, matty, cough) think it has a place in the game. and that's fine. however, i really think it stunts the league's growth. it also delays games, turns a beautiful game into a side show more often than not, and facilitates serious injuries. back to point #1, fighting also keeps "goons" and less talented players on rosters simply because they can "enforce" Fighting also dilutes the talent pool
3. Discipline--it's a joke. if you are going to allow fighting, then the NHL at least needs to discourage dirty and unnecessary plays. it's system of punishment is arbitrary at best, and often does nothing to curb future acts of violence.
4. Rule changes--scoring is down (again). we may see bigger nets and smaller goalie pads pretty soon, which is a start. But, every time the NHL attempts to adjust the way the game is officiated, it lasts for about 3-4 weeks then goes back to the way it was. Every other major sport has made rules changes to cater to it's superstars. a sport thrives when it's stars can shine. For example:
A) The NFL has made it almost impossible to touch a QB. it has enforced illegal contact and pass interference more and more each year, to allow for more offense, and in turn, QBs and WRs to thrive. it has only helped the game.
B) MLB has seen it's ballparks shrink dramatically over the years. Chicks dig the long ball. We are now seeing rules being heavily enforced on blocking the plate, speeding up the game, and the long awaited addition of instant replay. MLB was slow to adjust, but at least they did
C) NBA--has Lebron ever been called for a travel? There such a thing as an illegal defense :lol and going back further, the 24 second shot clock and the 3 point line...all meant to increase offense and cater to the superstars.

5. Canada--we get it, Canada. this is your baby, your thing, your apple fucking pie. But let's have some real talk. The NHL brings the world's best talent because it caught on in the USA. The money is here, the markets are here, but the mentality isn't. It's still run by the good ol' canadian boys who want to keep it a garage league. and it's working. There needs to be fresh, young, and maybe even American faces running things. All of the other major sports leagues are doing everything they can to have a product in line with the year 2015. NHL seems content on a 1970's product.


sorry, long winded, i know.

Originally Posted by RiotAct (Post 15897987)

Doesn't Edmonton have Pittsburgh's 1st-round pick this year?

That would be hilarious if the Pens miss out on the playoffs, thereby qualifying 'them' for the draft lottery, and that pick ends up winning it :lol

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897953)

You're pretty much right, although I'm now 100% against the hiring of Jim Rutherford as GM. The Perron deal was great and I love him on Sid's wing. However, the Despres and Bortuzzo deals I did not like, and then he goes and screws up their salary cap so badly that they have to play with 5 defensemen for 2 weeks. That's inexcusable and embarrassing for a pro organization. They just stink all around. So much wasted talent

Originally Posted by jrkarger (Post 15897963)

I'll be surprised if the Pens even make the playoffs at all at this point.



Cap problems aren't necessarily his fault. They are really feeling the effects of the Kunitz and Dupuis deals.

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897847)

i'll preface again by saying i think hockey is the purest, most exciting sport to watch and one of the hardest to play at a high level. the NHL also has the best playoffs of any other leagues IMO. However, what's wrong with the league:

1. Too many teams--30 teams is way too many. it dilutes the talent pool greatly. there would be even more parity if we had, say, 26-28 teams tops. Too many cities that won't ever care about hockey.
2. Fighting is legal--i won't get into the whole debate. i know a lot of ppl (cough, matty, cough) think it has a place in the game. and that's fine. however, i really think it stunts the league's growth. it also delays games, turns a beautiful game into a side show more often than not, and facilitates serious injuries. back to point #1, fighting also keeps "goons" and less talented players on rosters simply because they can "enforce" Fighting also dilutes the talent pool
3. Discipline--it's a joke. if you are going to allow fighting, then the NHL at least needs to discourage dirty and unnecessary plays. it's system of punishment is arbitrary at best, and often does nothing to curb future acts of violence.
4. Rule changes--scoring is down (again). we may see bigger nets and smaller goalie pads pretty soon, which is a start. But, every time the NHL attempts to adjust the way the game is officiated, it lasts for about 3-4 weeks then goes back to the way it was. Every other major sport has made rules changes to cater to it's superstars. a sport thrives when it's stars can shine. For example:
A) The NFL has made it almost impossible to touch a QB. it has enforced illegal contact and pass interference more and more each year, to allow for more offense, and in turn, QBs and WRs to thrive. it has only helped the game.
B) MLB has seen it's ballparks shrink dramatically over the years. Chicks dig the long ball. We are now seeing rules being heavily enforced on blocking the plate, speeding up the game, and the long awaited addition of instant replay. MLB was slow to adjust, but at least they did
C) NBA--has Lebron ever been called for a travel? There such a thing as an illegal defense :lol and going back further, the 24 second shot clock and the 3 point line...all meant to increase offense and cater to the superstars.

5. Canada--we get it, Canada. this is your baby, your thing, your apple fucking pie. But let's have some real talk. The NHL brings the world's best talent because it caught on in the USA. The money is here, the markets are here, but the mentality isn't. It's still run by the good ol' canadian boys who want to keep it a garage league. and it's working. There needs to be fresh, young, and maybe even American faces running things. All of the other major sports leagues are doing everything they can to have a product in line with the year 2015. NHL seems content on a 1970's product.


sorry, long winded, i know.

Originally Posted by jrkarger (Post 15897963)

Cap problems aren't necessarily his fault. They are really feeling the effects of the Kunitz and Dupuis deals.

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 15897974)

I disagree strongly with almost all of this.

Originally Posted by Rebecca De Mornay (Post 15897980)

i love how i can start a conversation in this thread and then get completely left out of the disucssion :lol

come on guys, some very insightful RDM posts on the last page.

Originally Posted by bradshaw06 (Post 15898044)

I don't think the Despres trade was all JR's doing. He mentioned specifically the assistant GM's wanting Lovejoy back. Not to mention the total smear campaign that upper management had against Despres. Sadly, the same thing can be said about Bennett. I'd bet good money he'll be gone this offseason.

Originally Posted by bradshaw06 (Post 15898048)

Dupuis doesn't effect them because of LTIR. Scuderi's deal however. Jeez. Shero made some bad signings before the end.

Originally Posted by bradshaw06 (Post 15898059)

It's a garage league for sure. No other league treats its superstars the way the NHL does. Refs go out of their way to look the other way when stars are abused.

Originally Posted by ~Crashintome89~ (Post 15898095)

The Pens have never been the same since trading Jordan Staal.

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15898129)

assistant GM? c'mon now. can't deflect like that, Rutherford pulled the trigger. and sure, coaching and management hasn't liked Despres, but that doesn't mean you trade him for fucking Lovejoy...he's been awful
.

Originally Posted by bradshaw06 (Post 15898145)

Despres trade came from the top. Bottom line, the Pens are one of the most arrogant, entitled teams out there.

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15897847)

1. Too many teams-
2. Fighting is legal--
3. Discipline--
4. Rule changes--
5. Canada-

Originally Posted by bradshaw06 (Post 15898048)

Dupuis doesn't effect them because of LTIR. Scuderi's deal however. Jeez. Shero made some bad signings before the end.

Originally Posted by hailtopitt (Post 15898129)

Dupuis deal isn't hurting them this year though

Originally Posted by jrkarger (Post 15898163)

Didn't know that about Dupui's deal. Point stands about Shero's signings.

Originally Posted by JRS1386 (Post 15898160)

1. I think that cutting some teams may be good, but I also feel they should be replaced with teams in markets that would succeed. There are a lot of markets out there that could handle an NHL team better than Phoenix and other places

2. Fighting should always be in the game. I don't think there are a lot of pointless fights in the NHL. A majority of the fights that do occur serve some purpose. Only 27% of the games this year have had a fight, so its not as common as you make it sound out to be.

3. The league is dreadful with consistency. They need to be better at it. Dirty/dangerous plays have no part in this game no one will disagree with that.

4. Rule changes should only be considered if they make the game better, not for mass appeal. I do not want to see the game cater to the scores and stars because it devalues the other players on the ice, and unlike other sports the blue collared type players do play a huge role for their team. I think the biggest reason is because the stars are not always on the ice, so why put rules that will favor players that are on the ice for 20 minutes a game?

5. This point means nothing to me. Keep the sport where the people care about it the most. I do not think any big bump will come to the NHL if it becomes based in the US.

Disclaimer: I could have misinterpreted several of your points. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by Rebecca De Mornay (Post 15897980)

i love how i can start a conversation in this thread and then get completely left out of the disucssion :lol

come on guys, some very insightful RDM posts on the last page.