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-   -   The NHL Thread (https://www.antsmarching.org/forum/showthread.php?t=324692)

fonzz41 02-19-2015 01:16 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TMoore4075 (Post 15832839)
Want outside opinions. A big debate on what site is whether Fedorov's #91 should hang at Joe Louis, or the new arena when it's ready. One guy on the comments was VERY vocal and kept pointing to stats and nothing about Fedorov's personal relationship with Illitch should come into play. He then tried to say to the people who said the number won't or shouldn't be retired that what if Datsyuk retired after this year would you retire his? Which isn't going to happen and even if it did, not at all close to the same thing that went down with Sergei. Fedorov is one of the best, although he probably could have been even better. He helped this team win 3 Cups, that ain't nothing, and by all accounts liked his teammates. But there were the selfish moments. Wouldn't sign after 97 and eventually signed an offer sheet with Carolina (owned by one of the Illitch's "enemies" Karmanos) with a very front loaded contract and the Wings matched so forcing him to stay. He then was offered at one time $10mil per year and $8mil per year from the Wings during the 02-03 season and Illitch met with him personally a few times I believe. Then he signs with the Ducks (totally his right don't get me wrong) for the same money that the Wings were offering. Fans were pretty pissed by this, although I wasn't surprised, and it seemed to make Illitch mad too. Things have calmed down and he played in the alumni game here but all of that is a lot to an owner who values loyalty. I mean Yzerman got a job here and Maltby, Draper, Chelios and Jiri Fischer all have jobs in the organization. What do you guys think? Should he or will he get his # retired? Obviously I know not being around all of this is hard to make a judgement but was curious.

I remember talking about this here maybe a couple years ago, and I think we all kind of agreed that players get their numbers retired for two reasons:

1) They were an NHL legend. This is usually qualified by numbers. Gretzky, Brodeur, Orr, Howe - guys like that.

2) They were a team legend. Usually reserved for long-time members of the club who may not have been stars, but made a big impact on the organization. Guys like Ken Daneyko and Adam Foote.

And of course it goes without saying that it's even better when guys manage to meet both qualifications.

And frankly, this is a team-by-team thing. Newer franchises that may not have been around for as long may be more likely to retire a team-legend's number than a more storied franchise. For example, I don't know if Foote's number would get retired had he played his whole career with Boston or Montreal. They've got enough NHL legends hanging in their rafters that there's kind of a higher standard. But on a "newer" club like Colorado? Hell yeah.

As for Federov, does he fit into either one of those above-mentioned "legend" categories? I tend to think not. Was he a VERY good player who contributed to the team's success during his tenure? Absolutely. But I'm not sure he's achieved that legendary status that puts him in the same sentence as Yzerman, Howe, Lidstrom, and the other game-changers who hang in Detroit's rafters.

But what do I know, I'm just an Avs fan! I mean, we retired Bourque's sweater after only a season and a half of him playing with the team!

TMoore4075 02-19-2015 01:27 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 15832870)
I remember talking about this here maybe a couple years ago, and I think we all kind of agreed that players get their numbers retired for two reasons:

1) They were an NHL legend. This is usually qualified by numbers. Gretzky, Brodeur, Orr, Howe - guys like that.

2) They were a team legend. Usually reserved for long-time members of the club who may not have been stars, but made a big impact on the organization. Guys like Ken Daneyko and Adam Foote.

And of course it goes without saying that it's even better when guys manage to meet both qualifications.

And frankly, this is a team-by-team thing. Newer franchises that may not have been around for as long may be more likely to retire a team-legend's number than a more storied franchise. For example, I don't know if Foote's number would get retired had he played his whole career with Boston or Montreal. They've got enough NHL legends hanging in their rafters that there's kind of a higher standard. But on a "newer" club like Colorado? Hell yeah.

As for Federov, does he fit into either one of those above-mentioned "legend" categories? I tend to think not. Was he a VERY good player who contributed to the team's success during his tenure? Absolutely. But I'm not sure he's achieved that legendary status that puts him in the same sentence as Yzerman, Howe, Lidstrom, and the other game-changers who hang in Detroit's rafters.

But what do I know, I'm just an Avs fan! I mean, we retired Bourque's sweater after only a season and a half of him playing with the team!

He's 5th all time on the team in points, although Pavel will probably pass him in a year or so. So in terms of production, I'd put him up there. But yeah it's a team by team thing. Look at the other Wings players up there. Gordie, Terrible Ted, Alex Delvecchio who is still 3rd in points, Sawchuk, Abel, Stevie Y and Lidstrom. Fedorov isn't with those guys because of how he tried to bolt twice. Those guys had so much to do with the organization on the ice, off the ice and the city of Detroit. He's just not in that class. Had he stayed...maybe it's different.

The same guy on those comments tried to use Ray as an example because he had his number retired with the Bruins and Avs. First the Avs one is weird, sorry Matty it just is. But Ray left the Bruins to win a Cup late in his career. Not after winning 3 and when the team was good and wanted him to stay. Not even close to the same thing.

fonzz41 02-19-2015 01:56 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TMoore4075 (Post 15832883)
The same guy on those comments tried to use Ray as an example because he had his number retired with the Bruins and Avs. First the Avs one is weird, sorry Matty it just is. But Ray left the Bruins to win a Cup late in his career. Not after winning 3 and when the team was good and wanted him to stay. Not even close to the same thing.

No need to apologize. I think it's strange myself. I'll give two half-hearted excuses.

1) A PR-move. When a new-ish team like the Avs has the opportunity to retire the number of an all-time great, they're going to take it.

2) His value to the team during that season and a half was incalculable. His "quest for the Cup" alone pretty much willed the team to the Cup. I don't know if they win it without him that year, and I don't mean just in terms of his contributions on the ice. Sure they had an all-star roster of Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Roy, Drury, etc., but "doing it for Ray" was a very tangible rallying point.

But yeah, I have no problem admitting it's strange. Not complaining, and certainly not campaigning that they take it down or something, but strange nonetheless.

kev87lads 02-19-2015 02:13 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
The Feds thing is similar to Lindros in Philly. When he was there, he was a beast and racked up the points. Ended kind of badly. Time heals wounds. Lindros finally returned and played in the alumni game and now comes back for all of the special events. (I.e. he'll be there tonight for Desjardins retirement. (Not retiring his number though))

I like Matty's "criteria" as it were. I'd probably retire Feds number if I'm a Wings fan. I know there were a lot of guys and a lot of guys there for awhile during the Wings run. But the three Cups, I'd put him right behind 19 and 5 as far as importance.

JRS1386 02-19-2015 02:22 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 15832870)
I remember talking about this here maybe a couple years ago, and I think we all kind of agreed that players get their numbers retired for two reasons:

1) They were an NHL legend. This is usually qualified by numbers. Gretzky, Brodeur, Orr, Howe - guys like that.

2) They were a team legend. Usually reserved for long-time members of the club who may not have been stars, but made a big impact on the organization. Guys like Ken Daneyko and Adam Foote.

And of course it goes without saying that it's even better when guys manage to meet both qualifications.

And frankly, this is a team-by-team thing. Newer franchises that may not have been around for as long may be more likely to retire a team-legend's number than a more storied franchise. For example, I don't know if Foote's number would get retired had he played his whole career with Boston or Montreal. They've got enough NHL legends hanging in their rafters that there's kind of a higher standard. But on a "newer" club like Colorado? Hell yeah.

As for Federov, does he fit into either one of those above-mentioned "legend" categories? I tend to think not. Was he a VERY good player who contributed to the team's success during his tenure? Absolutely. But I'm not sure he's achieved that legendary status that puts him in the same sentence as Yzerman, Howe, Lidstrom, and the other game-changers who hang in Detroit's rafters.

But what do I know, I'm just an Avs fan! I mean, we retired Bourque's sweater after only a season and a half of him playing with the team!

Is he related to Adam Hand?

TMoore4075 02-19-2015 02:36 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzz41 (Post 15832955)
No need to apologize. I think it's strange myself. I'll give two half-hearted excuses.

1) A PR-move. When a new-ish team like the Avs has the opportunity to retire the number of an all-time great, they're going to take it.

2) His value to the team during that season and a half was incalculable. His "quest for the Cup" alone pretty much willed the team to the Cup. I don't know if they win it without him that year, and I don't mean just in terms of his contributions on the ice. Sure they had an all-star roster of Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Roy, Drury, etc., but "doing it for Ray" was a very tangible rallying point.

But yeah, I have no problem admitting it's strange. Not complaining, and certainly not campaigning that they take it down or something, but strange nonetheless.

He'll always hold a place in Avs fans hearts the way things went down, I'm sure. So I get that side of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kev87lads (Post 15832991)
The Feds thing is similar to Lindros in Philly. When he was there, he was a beast and racked up the points. Ended kind of badly. Time heals wounds. Lindros finally returned and played in the alumni game and now comes back for all of the special events. (I.e. he'll be there tonight for Desjardins retirement. (Not retiring his number though))

I like Matty's "criteria" as it were. I'd probably retire Feds number if I'm a Wings fan. I know there were a lot of guys and a lot of guys there for awhile during the Wings run. But the three Cups, I'd put him right behind 19 and 5 as far as importance.

I think his # will eventually just not sure when. Wonder if once Illitch dies if it will change or not. Maybe he's gotten over it a bit himself, I dunno. Like I said, I think it will eventually but it's not a slam dunk.

barbogast 02-19-2015 02:38 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
I think Federov is right on that fine line for Detroit. Like Tim said, I remember things were a little rocky between the club/fans and Federov when he left. But he was a very important piece of those Cup teams back in the 90s. At this point, I think enough time has passed to consider it. But the other thing to remember is how much time Federov spent elsewhere, if I remember right he was only a Wing for about half his career, correct? I don't know, that's a tough one. I think if it wasn't the prestigious Detroit Red Wings it's an easy yes, but since it is Detroit it makes a little tougher. At this point though, sounds like the relationship had mended enough where I'd say go for it.

And while we're talking about retiring numbers, fucking retire 12 in Washington already. For god's sake, what are they waiting for.

TMoore4075 02-19-2015 02:46 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barbogast (Post 15833068)
I think Federov is right on that fine line for Detroit. Like Tim said, I remember things were a little rocky between the club/fans and Federov when he left. But he was a very important piece of those Cup teams back in the 90s. At this point, I think enough time has passed to consider it. But the other thing to remember is how much time Federov spent elsewhere, if I remember right he was only a Wing for about half his career, correct? I don't know, that's a tough one. I think if it wasn't the prestigious Detroit Red Wings it's an easy yes, but since it is Detroit it makes a little tougher. At this point though, sounds like the relationship had mended enough where I'd say go for it.

And while we're talking about retiring numbers, fucking retire 12 in Washington already. For god's sake, what are they waiting for.

More than have half. I think 13 years with the Wings and then 5 years split between Ducks, Jackets (haha) and Caps.

Caps need to retire Bondra's #.

barbogast 02-19-2015 02:55 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Wasn't Federov an Oiler for a minute or am I dreaming?

edit: just looked. I'm dreaming. Forgive my ignorance

TMoore4075 02-19-2015 03:16 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barbogast (Post 15833116)
Wasn't Federov an Oiler for a minute or am I dreaming?

edit: just looked. I'm dreaming. Forgive my ignorance

Dumbass! Go back to getting puked on.

barbogast 02-19-2015 03:28 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
:lol no clue where I got Oilers from

fonzz41 02-19-2015 03:47 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Yeah, agreed that Bondra's number needs to go up.

barbogast 02-19-2015 03:54 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
I just don't know what they possibly could be waiting for at this point. It's been almost a decade since he was last playing. It's time. It's past time.

lockman21 02-19-2015 04:35 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Geez, leave the thread for a couple hours and the old farts start talking about baby puke and piss.

barbogast 02-19-2015 04:44 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 15833312)
Geez, leave the thread for a couple hours and the old farts start talking about baby puke and piss.

:lol:lol don't be jealous

salrx95 02-19-2015 05:53 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Happy with the first period. Up 3-1 though Preds scored in final minute which sucks.

On a team like the Wings, I think Federov , though a great wing, doesn't go up to the rafters.

Roose13 02-19-2015 06:05 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barbogast (Post 15833116)
Wasn't Federov an Oiler for a minute or am I dreaming?

edit: just looked. I'm dreaming. Forgive my ignorance

Maybe you're thinking of the Ducks?

Or Chris Pronger. He was there one season and took them to the Cup :lol

Roose13 02-19-2015 06:08 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
And holy shit I do not remember Fedorov playing for Columbus at all! :eek

bradshaw06 02-19-2015 06:29 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Crosby just fought Dubinsky.

dmbetc 02-19-2015 06:49 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bradshaw06 (Post 15833396)
Crosby just fought Dubinsky.

:lol awesome.

barbogast 02-19-2015 06:49 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Nick Backstrom is now tied for NHL lead in points with Patrick Kane. All Star game can suck it

barbogast 02-19-2015 06:50 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roose13 (Post 15833384)
Maybe you're thinking of the Ducks?

Or Chris Pronger. He was there one season and took them to the Cup :lol

Sure, we'll say Pronger ;)

I really have no idea what I was remembering

salrx95 02-19-2015 06:53 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bradshaw06 (Post 15833396)
Crosby just fought Dubinsky.

Standing ovation from the crowd, too. They were happy to see some fight vs a division opponent.

bradshaw06 02-19-2015 07:06 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by salrx95 (Post 15833415)
Standing ovation from the crowd, too. They were happy to see some fight vs a division opponent.

so true.

barbogast 02-19-2015 07:29 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Caps fully dominated the Jets tonight. This team looks real good right now

salrx95 02-19-2015 07:41 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Strong performance for my boys and an improbable Pens loss extends our division lead.

3 points for Leddy. Thanks again Chicago.

Tied for most wins in nhl.

barbogast 02-19-2015 07:45 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Nick Backstrom for Hart. Starting the campaign now

salrx95 02-19-2015 08:00 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barbogast (Post 15833477)
Nick Backstrom for Hart. Starting the campaign now

You do know he isn't even the mvp of his team, right?

barbogast 02-19-2015 08:17 PM

Re: The NHL Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by salrx95 (Post 15833490)
You do know he isn't even the mvp of his team, right?

Can't tell if serious...

Perhaps you mean Holtby?

Brohan_Santana 02-19-2015 08:24 PM

Right now Ovechkin slightly gets the nod over Backstrom for MVP. But the Caps should have 2 finalists in both those two. I don't want to be hipster and say Backstrom is the MVP but he sure is well on his way. I would love to see Backstrom win the MVP award. Could you imagine the NHL MVP not being selected to the all star game?!? Crazy

Also props the the Dubinsky on getting the best of Crosby and the Pens with that SH goal :lol :lol


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