Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Sorry Matty, but I think you are wrong. You have more knowledge of the game than I could ever have but I think your views here are colored by the fact that you have seen fighting as part of the game for so long. Shawn Thornton can do all of those things but there are a lot of other guys who can do them better but don't fight. The thing that sets Thornton apart, and the reason he is still in the league, is because he can fight and is the guy who "stands up for his teammates." The guy is simply not in the league if fighting is not in the league.

I just think, when you look at a league trying to minimize head injuries, when you see the mental issues that a guy like Gino Odjick is going through, how can you allow fighting like this? I just think it's utterly ridiculous.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Happens all the time and it drives me nuts. I mean look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sT5HRPf3AU4

And watch Forsberg just skate off like..."well that hurt." He didn't piss and moan, no one went after Vladdy. Hell I see a holding, a hook and interference in that sequence and not one person complains to the ref. Now I know they call it different now but it also has created a lot more bitching the way they call it now.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

You are right, and it's unfortunate. One of the things I love most about hockey is the camaraderie and willingness to sacrifice and stick up for your team, but I hate the idea that if I deliver a clean, hard body check, I may have to get my face punched in for it. Having to pay for doing something well. It would sorta be like Crosby having to fight every time he scores a goal.

(ok, not completely the same, but the main idea is there: shouldn't have to be punished for doing something well)

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

I think part of it is that things happen so fast on the ice. Thorton or whoever sees their guy just laid out on the ice, he is going to assume the worst and that it was dirty.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

It's cool, Marty. I already accept it as a foregone conclusion that you and I will disagree when it comes to this. :lol

I will say that Thornton, by all accounts, is one of the most stand-up, team-first players on the Bruins. That makes him immensely valuable. Not only does he hold opponents accountable, but he holds players on his own team accountable. His teammates know that he is out there working his ass off every day for minimal minutes and getting punched in the face much of the time while doing it. That inspires all the way up to the top line, and when he says something to you, you listen. The fact that he's willing to fight for his guys is basically a physical manifestation of that team-first spirit. That, combined with the fact that he does indeed possess skill enough to hold his own out there keeps him on the roster.

Again, this defense of his character does not excuse his actions from this weekend.

EDIT: And Marty, I completely admit that my views are colored by my growing up immersed in the game. Fighting is very much - and always will be - part of the game for me. But you know that :)

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

That is exactly what happens. And I get that.

EDIT: Meant also to reply to Tim. That's a good example.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

i know you weren't speaking specifically of pens/bruins, i was just making a statement at the end there

what i'm getting at, is that you said yourself thornton gets 10 mins a game and won't put up 20 goals...so you're telling me NHL scouts can't find another 10 minute per game role player that won't act like a goon? sure, thornton played a part in the bruins's recent success but he's not irreplacable (for the league, and his team) like the people you mentioned (Roy, Crosby, Kane, Miller etc.)

i just think it's a ridiculous statement to say orpik should've just fought and it would've been over with. bullshit. he laid a clean hit and shouldn't have to defend it by dropping the gloves, orpik has never been a fighter anyway

and i totally agree about neal kneeing a guy while down, classless and bush league. i think i made that clear.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Not going to disagree with this and he has never really seemed like a dirty player, given his role. Not really even blaming Thornton so much (of course he does deserve blame for not thinking and putting another player in a very dangerous situation). My point is that the culture of fighting is what causes these situations. But he is still not a good player anymore. A few years ago, yes he was a decent player and much improved from his time in the Blackhawks' system in the early 00's. But I really don't think he is good enough on the ice to justify his roster spot anymore.

Of course, there are a lot of factors and guys are always going to get hurt and a physical sport like hockey will cause guys to lose their temper.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

1st bolded: Cool, I figured. :thumbsup

2nd bolded: You and Bron are on the same page. Yes, his statistical production could easily be replaced obviously, but it's quite simply his production combined with his intangible qualities that keep him on the roster. His character plays a big part. And surprisingly for his role, Thornton has a pretty clean slate. Yes, he fights, but it's not often that he crosses into outright goonery like he did with Orpik. Replace him if you'd like, but he fits in perfectly with the Bruins culture, and that's why he's on the roster every night.

3rd bolded: Agree, as noted.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

And this is probably about the point in our conversations where we virtually shake hands and agree to disagree in our overall views. :thumbsup

Although we did agree on some smaller points, so we're getting there!

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

very rarely do I see a fight in the NHL that wasn't pointless, stupid, and did nothing to change the game. The few times it does happen though, it perfectly shows why fighting should and will always be in the game. The issue isn't the fact that people are fighting, it's the reasons that they do it. fighting someone because of a big hit is so stupid. fighting because you're John Scott and you're Cam Janssen and we're standing next to each other is idiotic. Fighting because someone has been going after your star players all night and putting them in line is amazing and it's one of the more annoying parts of basketball, that you can't do that when someone is fouling Kobe all night.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

i get the whole chemistry thing, i do, but i'm at the point now where some sacrifice has to be made for the sake of the game and players' safety. it's more a result of me being fed up with what i'm seeing.

maybe it's because i watched matt cooke act a fool for a few years and seeing cheap shot after cheap shot taken at crosby and malkin (not saying other guys don't get it either, not being a homer). hockey is such a wonderful game, but the NHL has problems...

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

I thought fouling Kobe was encouraged?

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Kobe is the man! I love Kobe.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

I think the culture of the game is just different. There is a lot less respect, across the board. I don't know if fighting is a real deterrent right now because guys just don't care. The thought of a Probert or McSorley or Kocur or McCarty coming after you if went after a start player, used to stop guys from doing it. It just doesn't any more. Part of that is probably the instigator rule, guys don't want to cost their team 2 minutes so the threat isn't there as much as it used to be. Also I wonder if the fact that a guy will come after you just for a clean hit makes guys think "I'm gonna get it anyways I might as well make it count." I mean compare it to the article the other day about Avery and Hull said "you don't get to talk to Mr Sakic." Can't imagine that now. lol

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Respect is something that sets hockey - IMO - apart from other sports. But I agree that when guys are in the moment and start seeing red, that is one of the first things to be tossed out the window.

Maybe the Hull/Avery thing wouldn't happen today because there just aren't any players as respectable as Joe Sakic left? ;)

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

This I can agree with. :thumbsup I've always said that hockey is my first love (outside of my family of course, ahem!), and the NHL is a distant second.

I'm so ready to watch some Olympic hockey haha

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Hey I forgot to tell you. When I was at the Wings/Bruins game they had a silent auction for all kinds of cool hockey crap. One big thing I saw was pictures of all the hold Original 6 arenas with pucks below them but also a lot of autographed stuff. One was the shot of McCarty going after Lemieux and Shanny looking up at Roy coming down the ice:

http://www.hockeyworldblog.com/wp-co.../11/turtle.jpg

And it's signed by Mac AND by Lemieux. I thought that was awesome. No way that happened 10-15 years ago but cool that he signed it too I thought.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Probably ought to address when it's okay and not okay to fight. Trying to instigate a fight with a guy for delivering a good hard hit should be a big no-no

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Oh dude, me too. I love watching the game on the larger rinks and divided up by country. It's extremely fascinating to see the very distinct styles of each country and how they match up against each other.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Oh wow. :lol That's awesome that Claude signed it... not his best moment!

And check out my boy coming in after Shanny, gloves already coming off!

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

He probably saw Shanny looking towards Patrick and was thinking "this isn't gonna be good for Patrick."

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Yep, it seems most of us are in the same school of thought here.

I see it so frequently while officiating, especially at lower levels (bantam and up, where hitting is allowed). A guy will get creamed with a good legal check, and a coach will go beserker on me for not calling something because his guy is writhing on the ice. Yes, I feel bad for the kid that got hit, but I have to [calmly] explain to the coach that I cannot and WILL not punish a kid for doing something correctly. There is so much illegal hitting that happens, and we need to be sure we are not confusing young players as to what they can and cannot do. Punishing for technical proficiency is extremely detrimental, especially to young players.

I vividly remember reffing a high school game where a kid is lining up to check a kid into the boards, but then kinda indecisively pulled up at the last second and kind of just extended his forearm into the kid. Problem was, he caught the kid in the neck and ended up throwing him really awkward into the boards, injuring him. I gave the checker a boarding penalty and game misconduct. As I was escorting him off the ice, I asked why he didn't just follow through with his check, as it would've been safer in the end. His reply? "I got a penalty for checking a kid too hard last game and didn't want to get another one." I felt terrible for him. The inconsistency in calling incidents correctly had completely destroyed this kid's confidence.

Sorry, I know that goes beyond NHL stuff, but just had to vent.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

I don't disagree :lol

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Neal's lack of own accountability postgame irked Pens management. Maybe more discipline to follow internally.

Possible Cooke treatment coming for Neal.

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

fine with me :thumbsup

bylsma was no better either after the game

Re: The NHL 2013-14 Thread
 

Interesting, I'll have to look that up.

I did see Thornton's post-game comments and he seemed pretty contrite. Hard to always gauge how much is genuine and how much is putting on a face knowing you've got a hearing come up, but he seemed pretty rattled by what he had done. Doesn't mean his punishment should be lessened by any stretch of the imagination, but I appreciated it more so then if he would've tried to explain it away or make excuses.

This is exactly another problem I had, call me a sucker but Thornton seemed generally concerned and upset about what he did after the game. Neal just tried to deny, Thornton was a man about it.