Antsmarching.org Forums

Antsmarching.org Forums (https://www.antsmarching.org/forum/index.php)
-   The Tailgate (https://www.antsmarching.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=93)
-   -   The NHL Thread (https://www.antsmarching.org/forum/showthread.php?t=324692)

lockman21 02-15-2018 12:48 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Crashintome89~ (Post 17017931)
Lockman throwing knowledge bombs like he's Bob Probert or something.

:lol

I've been absent for a couple months and it's something I feel very strongly about, so kind of a perfect storm for me to come out firing.

swordo84 02-15-2018 12:58 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17017885)

So that USA/Canada women's game had almost 1 million more viewers than the USA/Russia men's game. CRAZY.

We'll see for this year, but it's definitely growing. Anecdotally, I know here in Chicago, as well as from friends in Minneapolis and Wisconsin, that attendance in girls hockey classes for kids are up 10-fold over the last decade or two. Before you would have to put them in boys classes (if you even had any girls at all). Now there are multiple girls classes packed full and some you even have to turn away because there's no ice time.

Think about this...in 1998 when this first started, if a girl was 6 years old watching women skate in Olympic hockey for the first time, and she took up interest in it...she'd only be 26 now. So by the time that women's Olympic hockey picked up any steam (let's say that was after 3 or 4 times in the Olympics) by around 2006, a 6-year-old kid watching that Olympics would only be 18 now. Barely old enough to actually compete.

My point is that those teams would barely have had time to train young girls and teams to compete. You factor in that a lot of countries have preconceived notions about what sports women (or young girls taking up the sport) should or shouldn't play, and it gets even harder.

By the time any part of communities can react to put together coaches, classes, etc. for these girls, we've had a lot of time pass. These things don't happen overnight. Culture needs to change, kids need to take up an interest in the sport, grow up learning, training, playing, developing around systems, coaches, classes, etc. that take time to set up and grow.

Even besides the fact that just basic human decency would say that women should have the same rights to compete as men, there's plenty of traction in the women's game to say that they deserve to be there and it's only getting better.

I'm not here to argue that women's hockey is low-key/declining in North America - that would be stupid. My issue is with the rest of the world and how they view it. I took some numbers from the IIHF website, vs. estimated female populations.

Canada = 0.5% are participants
Finland = 0.2%
Sweden = 0.1%
Czechs = 0.05%

I think it's a fair argument that these numbers show a general dis-interest in participating in hockey. Would increased funding increase participation? Perhaps, but generally there needs to be a level of interest shown before people will start handing out the $$. Funding numbers are very difficult, if not impossible to track down but I did quickly find 1 telling quote...

"They say hockey is for everyone in Canada. It isn't. It's for boys. If we get a $10,000 to $20,000 sponsor, we're lucky. Then you look at some of the money companies are putting into male sports. It's really about individuals standing up and supporting women's sports by actually doing something – writing a cheque or buying a ticket. That's how simple it is – and that's what has to happen."
-Brenda Andress, commish of the CWHL

...and this is in Canada where hockey is quite literally everything



Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17017925)
It's not completely apples to oranges but I think it rightfully illustrates my points that your argument is ridiculous.

The NHL, NBA, NFL etc. are all for-profit leagues/businesses. Hockey Canada, USA Hockey do what they do to "Lead, Develop, and Promote Positive Hockey Experiences." (This is the direct Hockey Canada Mission Statement). That of USA hockey is very similar

The Olympics (IOC corruption aside) are about bringing the best* in sport together in the spirit of competition. If there is no real competition then what is the point? Will it get there one day? Again, I have my doubts. I think what needs to happen is a team from not North America needs to catch lightning in a bottle, and Canada/USA on a bad day and beat them for something significant - be that the Olympics, World Championship etc. This might be enough to spur on that particular country and perhaps, others will follow suit thinking 'if they can, maybe we can too'.



*not this year because Bettman is a dorkus, and the owners don't want to risk their investments in their quest for profit.

swordo84 02-15-2018 01:26 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
This is not without precedent either. Women's softball got the boot because of domination at the hands of USA

"IOC members cited a noncompetitive field as the driving factor in its decision."
-Time.com


More on funding as well...
"In reaction to Rogge's comments, Swedish coach Peter Elander said the budgets of the North American teams are "eight times" higher than Sweden's and that the U.S. and Canada spend twice as much time training together. "Why isn't the Czech Republic here with a team?" asks Ouellette, the Canadian player. "They have such a good team on the men's side, but they don't have a women's team." Ouellette cites Russia as another disappointment. She coached a player from the country during her two years as an assistant at the University of Minnesota Duluth. "They have nothing," she says. "Right now, all the funding goes to the men's side." "


Here is the full article;
http://content.time.com/time/special...8364-1,00.html

lockman21 02-15-2018 01:40 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
OK, this is my last post on this because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall and can only argue misogyny so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordo84 (Post 17017947)
Canada = 0.5% are participants
Finland = 0.2%
Sweden = 0.1%
Czechs = 0.05%

This tells me literally nothing. What was it 10 years ago? What was it 20 years ago? What about 50? What are the numbers for luge? What about the biathlon? What about curling? What direction are those numbers trending? What about participation in summer sports?

Looking at numbers like this by themselves don't tell any single story. Life doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Quote:

"They say hockey is for everyone in Canada. It isn't. It's for boys. If we get a $10,000 to $20,000 sponsor, we're lucky. Then you look at some of the money companies are putting into male sports. It's really about individuals standing up and supporting women's sports by actually doing something – writing a cheque or buying a ticket. That's how simple it is – and that's what has to happen."
-Brenda Andress, commish of the CWHL
You realize how this quote actually argues my point for me...right?

If the women's game is going to succeed, it NEEDS avenues like the Olympics. You pull it from the Olympics and it dies.

Again, and I feel like I'm repeating myself way too much, THESE THINGS TAKE TIME. You can't just expect popularity to boom and all the sudden the competition is intense.

I'll pull another couple quotes:

"For me, it's a question of gender equality – for young girls to have the same dream as young boys. Right now, that really doesn't exist. I don't think my teammates and I am delusional and think we can fill an NHL building at the moment. I don't think anyone is aiming for million-dollar salaries. But if it was an amount that would allow players to make a living playing the game and not have to work full-time, imagine how great the product can get."

"We hope that we can get to a point where people recognize it is different hockey – and appreciate it the way they appreciate women's tennis as its own sport."

"One of our challenges today is that we get compared to the boys all the time," she said. "In tennis, people would never say, 'oh, Serena Williams should play Roger Federer and see who wins' – and yet, we still hear that all the time. Our best player, Marie-Philip Poulin, doesn't train any less than Sidney Crosby. She'll never shoot as hard as he does, but their vision on the ice is incredible and exactly the same. We hope that we can get to a point where people recognize it is different hockey – and appreciate it the way they appreciate women's tennis as its own sport."

Women's team sports in general suffer, but if you don't give them an avenue for people to actually watch their skill and passion, that's how it grows. No one is saying participation is going to boom in other countries like men's basketball in China, but to say they don't deserve to compete or get a chance to let other countries catch on is just plain wrong.


Quote:

The NHL, NBA, NFL etc. are all for-profit leagues/businesses. Hockey Canada, USA Hockey do what they do to "Lead, Develop, and Promote Positive Hockey Experiences." (This is the direct Hockey Canada Mission Statement). That of USA hockey is very similar

The Olympics (IOC corruption aside) are about bringing the best* in sport together in the spirit of competition. If there is no real competition then what is the point? Will it get there one day? Again, I have my doubts. I think what needs to happen is a team from not North America needs to catch lightning in a bottle, and Canada/USA on a bad day and beat them for something significant - be that the Olympics, World Championship etc. This might be enough to spur on that particular country and perhaps, others will follow suit thinking 'if they can, maybe we can too'.
Again you're missing the point (I can't even begin to articulate how dumb that bolded argument is but I'll try) but then how about we look men's Olympic hockey?

If you look at it from 1964-1988, there really was only a couple teams competing. Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia and Sweden. Should they have pulled the plug on men's hockey because the Soviet's were so dominant? How about we go back to when it first started in 1920? Should they have pulled it after the 1952 Olympics (after 32 years of competition, 12 more than the women have got so far) when Canada took home 6 gold medals in 7 Olympics (and 1 silver in the only year they didn't win gold)?

Man! If there's no real competition? Then what's the point? Shut it down. We tried for 7 different Olympics and it's always Canada winning. Those people don't deserve to play. That CLEARLY isn't in the "true spirit of competition". Let's not give it a chance. Hockey clearly is a Canadian sport and no other counties will ever compete. We have our doubts. And hey, we tried women's hockey for 20 years (again, NOT THAT LONG), fuck gender equality or giving something actual time to grow and develop, we should just shut it down.

lockman21 02-15-2018 01:52 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Anywho, how about those Golden Knights, eh?

swordo84 02-15-2018 02:02 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17017991)
OK, this is my last post on this because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall and can only argue misogyny so much.

We're way off the rails if you think this is about me having contempt for, or a lack of respect for women. My point is very very few people outside of North America give a fuck about women's hockey.

The numbers provided were from 2016, but yes you're right - they need more context. The quote about funding is just that. I argued that women need more of it, and they simply aren't getting it. The appetite from governments, the corporate world and private investors isn't there. As for level of competition, I made a point in a later post about the IOC dumping women's softball. The precedent is there.

It's evident we are no where in the same ballpark on this, nor will we ever be - and that's ok. I know it's been said before many times but it's nice in this thread that discussions, no matter how big/small can be had without resorting to petty insults and derogatory terms like the rest of .org


I'm going back to trying to cheer for the Oilers, even though my interest in the NHL is at an all time low. I can only pay attention to a perpetual basement dweller for so long.

swordo84 02-15-2018 02:02 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17018003)
Anywho, how about those Golden Knights, eh?

I wish I was a Golden Knights fan.

TMoore4075 02-15-2018 02:03 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17018003)
Anywho, how about those Golden Knights, eh?

Sabres and Yotes have to be wondering what they're doing wrong.

swordo84 02-15-2018 02:06 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TMoore4075 (Post 17018032)
Sabres and Yotes have to be wondering what they're doing wrong.

Say the Oilers "Hold my beer..."

~Crashintome89~ 02-15-2018 02:09 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17017991)
"We hope that we can get to a point where people recognize it is different hockey Ė and appreciate it the way they appreciate women's tennis as its own sport."

"One of our challenges today is that we get compared to the boys all the time," she said. "In tennis, people would never say, 'oh, Serena Williams should play Roger Federer and see who wins' Ė and yet, we still hear that all the time. Our best player, Marie-Philip Poulin, doesn't train any less than Sidney Crosby. She'll never shoot as hard as he does, but their vision on the ice is incredible and exactly the same. We hope that we can get to a point where people recognize it is different hockey Ė and appreciate it the way they appreciate women's tennis as its own sport."

Seems like there was a lot of criticism towards Pierre McGuire last night for his remarks comparing women players to male players. I didn't see the game so I don't know the extent of it, just saw it through twitter this morning.

TMoore4075 02-15-2018 02:52 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by swordo84 (Post 17018038)
Say the Oilers "Hold my beer..."

hey they made the playoffs...once.

YouNeverKnow25 02-15-2018 03:12 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
decided to go to the penguins-kings game tonight. look for me in the corner on the glass behind the goal the kings shoot at twice

dmbetc 02-15-2018 04:04 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow25 (Post 17018149)
decided to go to the penguins-kings game tonight. look for me in the corner on the glass behind the goal the kings shoot at twice

Hard to look for you when we don't know what you look like. Can you please hold up a "I <3 antsmarching.org" sign?

lockman21 02-15-2018 04:46 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dmbetc (Post 17018204)
Hard to look for you when we don't know what you look like. Can you please hold up a "I <3 antsmarching.org" sign?

We will also accept a picture of Keith Yandle with a giant heart around it.

mr.MikeD 02-15-2018 08:54 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Whoo I missed some heat in here today. 100% think the women should play hockey in the olympics and 100% hope McDavid and his supporting clownshow loosely referred to as a hockey team keep up their win streak against the Golden Knights tonight

~Crashintome89~ 02-15-2018 10:26 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17018261)
We will also accept a picture of Keith Yandle with a giant heart around it.

or "Matty <3 D(efensemen)"

JRS1386 02-15-2018 10:46 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Or I <3 women with hairy legs

Lcsulla 02-15-2018 11:15 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Sarah, next time your Kings face anaheim (aka the dirtiest team in the NHL) I hope your your play physical as hell and take the assholes like getzlav, kessler, manson and cockloiano and put them out for the season.

dmbetc 02-16-2018 01:19 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lcsulla (Post 17018564)
Sarah, next time your Kings face anaheim (aka the dirtiest team in the NHL) I hope your your play physical as hell and take the assholes like getzlav, kessler, manson and cockloiano and put them out for the season.

Itís always a physical game with the rival with the Ducks. But, I hope they donít take out any of their players.

fonzz41 02-16-2018 01:50 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Crashintome89~ (Post 17018547)
or "Matty <3 D(efensemen)"

This is accurate. All of it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lcsulla (Post 17018564)
Sarah, next time your Kings face anaheim (aka the dirtiest team in the NHL) I hope your your play physical as hell and take the assholes like getzlav, kessler, manson and cockloiano and put them out for the season.

Looks like someone got into daddyís medicine cabinet tonight?
Quote:

Originally Posted by dmbetc (Post 17018589)
Itís always a physical game with the rival with the Ducks. But, I hope they donít take out any of their players.

:thumbsup

fonzz41 02-16-2018 01:52 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17018261)
We will also accept a picture of Keith Yandle with a giant heart around it.

Yíknow, I picked him up for my fantasy squad this year so Iíve been paying a little closer attention to him than normal, and heís actually playing quite well. Not the dream boat that he was back in his Coyote days, but a fairly reliable 3-zone defenseman.

lockman21 02-16-2018 02:04 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Hawks lose their 8th in a row.

AND IM FREEEEEEE....FREE FALLLLIIINNN

TMoore4075 02-16-2018 07:52 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Wings are only a point behind the Hawks. Can't wait until the deadline.

salrx95 02-16-2018 08:10 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Nice, satisfying win last night. Halak played out of his mind. He owns the Queen H2H.

Barzal loves playing against the Rag$.

Game 1 : 1st NHL Goal.
Game 2 : 5 point game
Game 3 : 3 point game.

JRS1386 02-16-2018 08:45 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dmbetc (Post 17018589)
Itís always a physical game with the rival with the Ducks. But, I hope they donít take out any of their players.

What if they want to go out for some fro-yo when its all done? Not even then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockman21 (Post 17018597)
Hawks lose their 8th in a row.

AND IM FREEEEEEE....FREE FALLLLIIINNN

Good.

YouNeverKnow25 02-16-2018 08:59 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
fun game last night. only one goal scored on our end but an awesome time. live nhl action is the best.

swordo84 02-16-2018 09:00 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.MikeD (Post 17018490)
Whoo I missed some heat in here today. 100% think the women should play hockey in the olympics and 100% hope McDavid and his supporting clownshow loosely referred to as a hockey team keep up their win streak against the Golden Knights tonight

I'd wager there is a 95% chance we'll get the #1 overall pick...again, the rest of the league will hate, and laugh at us...again, and 2018/2019 will be a shitty, underwhelming season...again.

As sure as the sun rises in the east, it is our destiny.

~Crashintome89~ 02-16-2018 09:15 AM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lcsulla (Post 17018564)
getzlav, kessler


https://media.giphy.com/media/aZ3LDBs1ExsE8/giphy.gif

Climb2safety 02-16-2018 12:37 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Not sure what the prevailing opinion is (though I am usually in the minority) but I donít hate the mens hockey without the NHL players.

Seems like more team play, back to basics, puck movement and fundamentals. Iím liking it.

lockman21 02-16-2018 12:42 PM

Re: The NHL Thread (Golden Knights are alright)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRS1386 (Post 17018644)
Good.

Don't worry, we'll just sign some random European and/or Russian that can score 30 goals for us next season and get the first pick in the draft to grab Rasmus Dahlin and win the Cup next year.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All trademarks and copyrights are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster. The rest is owned by antsmarching.org.