Quote:
Originally Posted by fonzz41
(Post 17401779)
And what I'm saying is exactly that: Check out the stats, but don't just rely on that alone. Watch them too. If you know the game, you'll then know whether they are a benefit to their team or not.
How are PK Subban's possession stats? He'd be an example of someone who looks good on paper but then you watch him and you're like, "uhhhh...." But admittedly, I have no idea about that kind of thing.
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This, exactly. Subban looks solid on paper but is a mediocre at best d man. Contrast that with a guy like Nik Hjarlmasson - he puts up squat on the score sheet but he shuts down the best players in the game and knows exactly what do do with the puck when he gets it. Subban is a one hit wonder, he can shoot, that's about all he is good at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drakan
(Post 17401794)
We have people here who think Ovi is playing defense.:lol
He just went from not playing D at all to kinda caring about it. He may make an effort now but he's still not good at it.
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This is sort of harsh and I am not even a Caps fan, he has made large improvements on D, he backchecks, he can gum up a rush at the blue line, wins board battles, block shots and when his team gets the puck back he is up the ice damn quick to create odd man rushes that they often capitalize on.
Thing is D is not his role, he is a goal producing machine who has improved his D notably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fonzz41
(Post 17401814)
I guess I would ask what your definition of "good" is and compare that to the role he's being asked to play. A winger's primary job in the defensive zone (I'm sure you already know this and I'm not trying to sound condescending) is to cover the points, correct? Only in necessary instances do they come down further than the face-off dots. The purpose of this is to, of course, get in front of/prevent point shots, but it is also to facilitate a quick break-out and transition to offense. The defense can't get the puck out effectively if there's no one to get the puck up to. In addition, your top line's wingers are asked to be even more ready to break out; more so than a checking line's wingers. In that sense, Ovi - to my eye test - is doing what he's tasked with doing as a top line winger. He covers his point (which he never used to do), he blocks shots, he comes down low when he has to, and he's got his ass on the boards ready for the break-out pass when he needs to be. He messes up sometimes, he gets lazy sometimes, but that's hockey.
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This, plus like Kane he is smart when covering the blue line guys and can see when his team gets the puck and he flies up the ice to create chances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drakan
(Post 17401977)
I didn't know that computer rankings, goals above replacement and wins above replacement would set you guys into meltdown mode. If computer rankings cause you to get flustered that is a you problem, not a me problem. I'm good.
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No one is melting down, we are simply pointing out that a player cannot be measured purely by some advanced stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drakan
(Post 17401983)
I've watched Ovi for years and he is just no good at defense. Plus he doesn't have the softest of hands and is maybe just an average passer. Don't seem to really set up people. He is an awesome goal scorer though. He would be so much better if he was just an average defender. There is a reason with all his goals that his plus minus is 400 less than Gretzky.
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I have watched him his whole career and can state categorically that his D has improved quite a bit. Not a passer? Come on, the Caps PP runs through him. Lastly comparing anyone to Gretzky is absurd - imagine Ovie on a team with Messier, Anderson, Kurri, McSorely, Fuhr and no damn salary cap. He would have far more goals, points, assists and a better plus minus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drakan
(Post 17402058)
I would just say this, playing offense is easy. Playing defense takes work and energy.
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This.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fonzz41
(Post 17402060)
As a defenseman myself, I agree with half that statement.
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Ditto!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roose13
(Post 17402407)
Didn't know Wayne Gretzky, who literally has some of the most untouchable stats in sports history, is the bar for any player to be considered great.
Please, don't stop. This is so much fun.
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Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drakan
(Post 17402698)
Ovi is on Wayne's level. Ovi is one of the greatest scorers of all time and has probably the best wrist shot of all time.
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IMO Mike Bossy is the best goal scorer in history but he got his career ended at age 30 after having scored a whopping 573 goals, 553 assists, 1,126 points in just 752 games not to mention the fact that in all those games he only served 38 penalty minutes. as for wrist shots, Ovie has a solid one but it pales to guys like Crosby or Kane.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fonzz41
(Post 17402713)
Hoh boy. When talking about high level of play at both ends of the ice, Crosby is definitely one of the top two-way players in the game. Easy.
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Agreed again, I think him, Bergeron and Toews are the best 2 way guys in the business currently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brohan_Santana
(Post 17402956)
Lightning need to win 8 of their last 9 to break 95-96 Wings most wins of a season & Canadiens points in a season
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You know they will be gunning for it and if they do maybe that momentum carries over into the postseason and they can avoid their usual collapse in big games.
