DC Cinematic/TV Marthaverse Fandom (DCUc)

[TMoore4075]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Wait, should filmmakers not try to make their work award-worthy?

OMG someone is criticizing BvS I must chime in and defend to the death.

They were trying for the cool shots instead of the story. All you have to do is look at the pearl necklace part of the scene. The gun just ends up under the necklace, you never see him try to take them or steal anything, and then there is the shot of him just pulling the trigger.

In the Nolan version, Thomas is doing his best to keep his family safe and it just goes wrong. BvS Thomas is like you have gun, I'm gonna try and punch you! I felt bad for them Batman Begins. In BvS, I'd argue Thomas got his family murdered.

I like a lot of the Batman stuff in BvS, just this scene wasn't one of them.

[TMoore4075]

Originally Posted by aeroshady

Trying to make anything to win an award is the wrong approach in art. You make something that comes from a vision and if it gets awarded later great, but if it doesn't, it is okay. I think the point is that if you make something in an attempt to win an award, it often comes out worse than if you just focused on the piece of art.

Edit: Keep in mind, I am just offering my thoughts on that subject. That may not be what Tim meant. Also, I have not seen BvS, so I have no opinion on that scene.

Thanks Greg. He gets me. lol

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

Again, I don't think fight scenes, detective skills, cool take on Alfred and best Bat-suit are things that Ben Affleck gets credit for. If you want to say BvS writers and creative team created the best depiction of Batman as a whole yet, I can get onboard, but I really think asking WHO is the best Batman is a different question and is mostly an acting question. And I don't really think that much of what Affleck did stood out one way or the other. He did fine for the version of Batman that BvS wanted to depict.

Well I guess we can get into semantics, but my understanding of the question is, overall, what live action adaptation of Batman is the best/your favorite? As far as I know Christian Bale didn't write his lines, choreograph his fights (which I'm pretty sure neither Bale or Affleck did all of the fight sequences and had stuntmen, so if you want to go there...), or design his suit and Batmobile. I agree we aren't quite there yet with Affleck. He's only been in one movie (technically two if you include Suicide Squad, which his 8 minutes of screen time were the best part of that disaster) and his first two movies as the Dark Knight are shared with other characters, so they aren't 100% Batman movies. But thus far I think what he displayed in Batman vs. Superman ("Martha Moment" or not) was a very promising take on the character I love. Both Christian Bale and Ben Affleck acted in the roles very well, so I'm not sure how else to make a judgment on which version I like best without including the story being told, the suit, the gadgets, the car, the Batcave, the fighting styles etc. If we want to talk acting chops I guess we can, but I didn't think that was the question being asked. So to play into the semantics here, I'll try and word this differently. Overall, the version of Batman from the Dark Knight Trilogy, played by Christian Bale, is currently the best version of the character, in my opinion. However, as said before, if Ben Affleck stays in the role, and the character continues in the same direction set forth in Batman vs. Superman, I think the version of Batman in the new DCEU that is played by Ben Affleck has a chance to contend with the version from the Dark Knight Trilogy...played by Christian Bale ;-)

Originally Posted by TMoore4075

I didn't like the death scene in BvS at all. Felt like they were trying to win cinematography awards with it. Do it right or don't do it.

.

I thought they did a good job. No one wanted to see a full on rehash of the Bruce Wayne origin story. We've all seen it before. But in order to deliver the character they wanted to depict they did a quick rehash to drive forth the overall driving force behind Bruce Wayne's motives for being Batman. This was central to his story arc, as it's clear from the beginning of the movie that we're meeting a broken Bruce Wayne that is far from the Bruce Wayne that started out as a committed defender of innocent citizens. I hate that we're back here again, but....Whether you liked the "Martha Moment" or not, the point was to show that it was the death of Bruce's parents that drove him to become Batman. He's so completely destroyed by that one moment in his life, albeit a major life event, that it's warped his mind into thinking dressing up as a bat and acting as a vigilante is the best way to work through the pain. But in Batman vs. Superman we find him 20 years or so down the line completely "lost in this monster" (to steal from Alfred in Batman Begins) that he's essentially "becoming the very thing you swore to protect" (to steal from Obi-Wan Kenobi in Renvenge of the Sith :-) In order to do that they had to depict the death of his parents, but I don't think they needed to spend that much time on it.

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Now we're getting into semantics here with this. The character is who the character is. Affleck was also pretty substantially involved in crafting the character and the interpretation, from what I've read.

Whether or not an actor gets credit for the work of the stunt team, fight choreographer, costume designer, etc. is just silly. That's all of what goes into making a character, and the same thing happened with Bale, Keaton, Clooney, and Kilmer.

Also, the discussions between Bruce and Alfred in BvS are amazing. The one in the Batcave after Bruce first discovers the existence of Kryptonite ("You're going to go to war?"), the one in the ruins of Wayne Manor ("So falls the House of Wayne") and the one following the Superman fight/leading to rescue Martha Kent are all great exchanges. Should the actors not get credit there because the scriptwriters wrote good scenes?

Superfriends unite!!!

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by TMoore4075

OMG someone is criticizing BvS I must chime in and defend to the death.

They were trying for the cool shots instead of the story. All you have to do is look at the pearl necklace part of the scene. The gun just ends up under the necklace, you never see him try to take them or steal anything, and then there is the shot of him just pulling the trigger.

In the Nolan version, Thomas is doing his best to keep his family safe and it just goes wrong. BvS Thomas is like you have gun, I'm gonna try and punch you! I felt bad for them Batman Begins. In BvS, I'd argue Thomas got his family murdered.

I like a lot of the Batman stuff in BvS, just this scene wasn't one of them.

Not at all, your statement was so bizarre left alone and with no explanation that it made almost no sense. I see what you were getting at now. Did you not like how it was stylized?

They were clearly trying to toe a very delicate line between showing something that's been beaten to death (pun not intended but kinda intended) in every incarnation of Batman, but also making that part of the character of Bruce Wayne relevant and fresh. If they showed it in a way similar to Batman Begins, they would've been torn apart ("We've seen this 100 times already!"). The way they did it struck a good balance between incorporating it into the story but in a more refreshing light.

I also disagree on the cinematography portion of it; it's one of the most beautifully-shot sequences of the entire movie (of which there are many).

FWIW, it's also a pretty close realization of the same scene from The Dark Knight Returns comic book. It's intentionally vague and disjointed to reflect Bruce's recollection of it.

[MOWJO8185]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

So then this begs the question, what about Bale's performance stood out to you to such an extent that all the things you mentioned that can be attributed to other people (the suit, fight choreography, script/scenes, etc.) don't factor into the equation?

I never said script/scenes, that was you. Sure, they can be attributed to other people, but the actor still has to execute that, and there's probably a wide range in that execution depending on the actor.

I think Christian Bale played essentially three roles - an intense Batman that created fear in the hearts of criminals, a hedonistic playboy, and then the tortured Bruce that we see when nobody but Alfred is watching. And I think nailing all 3 of those in a single character is impressive and he demonstrated quite the range in making all 3 of those feel real. Yes, the screenwriters played a big role in creating that character, but Bale still had to pull it off.

I think Affleck basically had to play angry all the time, both as Batman and Bruce. And he did it fine, I have no complaints about it. But I don't know that he had to demonstrate a ton of range. And to be fair, it wasn't a solo movie and that anger obviously played a central role in the plot of the film so there wasn't room to show a lot else, so I don't hold it against him. He did fine with what he was given, but I didn't come away saying WOW about the job he did or anything.

The things I thought were AMAZING about the Batman character in Batman v Superman I don't think Affleck made much of a difference on, unless he designed the costume or performed his own stunts.

[KevinTH]

To be clear, any and all debates I take part in are meant in good fun. I love comic books and comic book movies, so it's just fun to get in depth with the details sometimes. I don't have many people in my personal life other than you clowns to talk about this stuff with

[aeroshady]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Ok, so substitute "award-worthy" for "high quality" and my point still stands.

Yeah, but I believe those are two different things.

Originally Posted by TMoore4075

Thanks Greg. He gets me. lol

Anytime

[sheldonlevene]

Comics - being the visual medium that they are lean heavily on aesthetic. This extends to films based on comics.

I think a lot of what the BvS supporters really liked about the Batman presented in that film are the aesthetics of the character, his world (cave, cars, gadgets, ally) etc. The suit and the ability of the actor to realistically fill it out are pretty important to the character. Bale did this really well in Begins and then they made him look like an action figure in TDK/R. That alone gives Affleck a leg up - in his control or not. Another extension of this is the way the actor moves, fights and talks in the suit. I think Affleck nailed all of those. He also, to his direct credit, nailed the pissed off Bruce and IMO did well with the aloof Bruce at the Lex party.

I think he still has a ways to go to catch Bale just from a "great story" perspective that lets him stretch, but he's on his way. Looking forward to JL and a solo film that can solidify his place.

[UCFish]

I changed my mind....Lego Batman is by far the best Batman.

Also the best Batman movie since the Dark Knight Rises.

[KevinTH]

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

I never said script/scenes, that was you. Sure, they can be attributed to other people, but the actor still has to execute that, and there's probably a wide range in that execution depending on the actor.

I think Christian Bale played essentially three roles - an intense Batman that created fear in the hearts of criminals, a hedonistic playboy, and then the tortured Bruce that we see when nobody but Alfred is watching. And I think nailing all 3 of those in a single character is impressive and he demonstrated quite the range in making all 3 of those feel real. Yes, the screenwriters played a big role in creating that character, but Bale still had to pull it off.

I think Affleck basically had to play angry all the time, both as Batman and Bruce. And he did it fine, I have no complaints about it. But I don't know that he had to demonstrate a ton of range. And to be fair, it wasn't a solo movie and that anger obviously played a central role in the plot of the film so there wasn't room to show a lot else, so I don't hold it against him. He did fine with what he was given, but I didn't come away saying WOW about the job he did or anything.

The things I thought were AMAZING about the Batman character in Batman v Superman I don't think Affleck made much of a difference on, unless he designed the costume or performed his own stunts.

I see what you're saying, and definitely don't disagree with everything. You may have led with this

I do still think Affleck put a lot into the role and was better than I anticipated him to be. I knew he'd be good, but I didn't know he'd be as good as he was. I like Ben Affleck, but he can have a tendency to play Ben Affleck in his movies, so that was a bit of a worry for me. But instead of seeing it and thinking, "Hey, that's Ben Affleck in a Batman costume", I was thinking, "damn...that's Bruce Wayne from the comics and Animated Series". I just really think he inhabited the role and it was a natural fit for him. Just the dryness in the way he talked, and the sluggish grim look he gave the character was so well done. The writers can write him as a weathered, angry, tired Bruce Wayne, but it was up to Ben Affleck to make me believe that, and I think he absolutely nailed that. He looked tired, depressed and like he was a completely lost soul. I love that moment where he wakes up next to the woman he clearly had a fling with and sits on the edge of the bed and slugs down whatever pills he's on with whatever is left in the bottle of wine next to the bed. Little things like that. Or the look on his face when he hugs the little girl at the beginning of the movie while looking up at Superman fighting Zod. Pure anger in his eyes. Like, "I'm going to be the one that ends him". He put way more into this role than you might think, but it's just a different take. No, it's not 3 personas like you say, but in my opinion that doesn't mean his range is any less. I do see what you're saying though. Just fun to debate this stuff I suppose.

Originally Posted by sheldonlevene

Comics - being the visual medium that they are lean heavily on aesthetic. This extends to films based on comics.

I think a lot of what the BvS supporters really liked about the Batman presented in that film are the aesthetics of the character, his world (cave, cars, gadgets, ally) etc. The suit and the ability of the actor to realistically fill it out are pretty important to the character. Bale did this really well in Begins and then they made him look like an action figure in TDK/R. That alone gives Affleck a leg up - in his control or not. Another extension of this is the way the actor moves, fights and talks in the suit. I think Affleck nailed all of those. He also, to his direct credit, nailed the pissed off Bruce and IMO did well with the aloof Bruce at the Lex party.

I think he still has a ways to go to catch Bale just from a "great story" perspective that lets him stretch, but he's on his way. Looking forward to JL and a solo film that can solidify his place.

This is well said, and pretty much sums it up for me.

[chadizzy1]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Chad, you're earning a reputation for having some truly awful taste.

I liked the GL movie.
I love all the CW shows.
And I enjoyed Batman Forever and Batman & Robin.

I will take all the criticism people give me for that. I'm sure part of it is the fact that I'm a huge DC fan and I love seeing anything DC related. But I also genuinely enjoy those movies/shows.

Originally Posted by sheldonlevene

This brings up a good point...

Who is the definitive Batman?

Adam West is the one true Batman. That's who I grew up watching, and it's who I introduced my son to as his first Batman. In animation, Kevin Conroy. Same for the Joker - Cesar Romero is the true Joker, but in animation it's Mark Hamill.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by chadizzy1

Adam West is the one true Batman. That's who I grew up watching, and it's who I introduced my son to as his first Batman. In animation, Kevin Conroy. Same for the Joker - Cesar Romero is the true Joker, but in animation it's Mark Hamill.

I mean, I can understand still enjoying Batman 66 from a nostalgia factor. But to say he's the "one true Batman" is a little absurd considering the show was made essentially as a parody and is literally the furthest out of any live-action adaptation of what the character of Batman is.

[chadizzy1]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

I mean, I can understand still enjoying Batman 66 from a nostalgia factor. But to say he's the "one true Batman" is a little absurd considering the show was made essentially as a parody and is literally the furthest out of any live-action adaptation of what the character of Batman is.

I enjoy his Batman and his Bruce Wayne more than any of the others (in live action). I grew up watching him, so I'm attached to him, but anytime I think of Batman/Bruce Wayne I think Adam West. It's not just nostalgia for me, I still enjoy watching it today when I'm in the mood for Batman. It's that, or Batman The Animated Series.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by chadizzy1

I enjoy his Batman and his Bruce Wayne more than any of the others (in live action). I grew up watching him, so I'm attached to him, but anytime I think of Batman/Bruce Wayne I think Adam West. It's not just nostalgia for me, I still enjoy watching it today when I'm in the mood for Batman. It's that, or Batman The Animated Series.

To each their own, I suppose. I prefer my Batman to be teaching his enemies to eat their own teeth and buckle their knee caps rather than teaching 10 year olds to eat their vegetables and buckle their seatbelts, but that's just me.

[TwoStep2888]

I'm not going to go back and quote all the posts about the BvS Thomas Martha Wayne scene but I'll just say the Batman Begins version is great too, I'm just a very visual person when it comes to movies and I think the BvS one is stunning in that respect ok that's all

[Jake]

https://youtu.be/c-ijgjG-9Gc

set aside 17 mins and watch a listing of every Joker portrayal ever. I don't exactly agree with the order of the top 5, but it's pretty solid.

[KevinTH]

If you are a serious comic book reader, a lover of all things Batman, and you have Hulu I highly recommend you watch Batman and Bill. It's a documentary about a writer, and comic book enthusiast, that came across the story of the uncredited co-creator of Batman, Bill Finger. He kept digging into the story and eventually his mission became getting Bill Finger the credit he deserved all along. It's an incredible heart wrenching, and eventually hopeful story. Be prepared to look at Bob Kane in a whole new way.

[chadizzy1]

Originally Posted by Jake

https://youtu.be/c-ijgjG-9Gc

set aside 17 mins and watch a listing of every Joker portrayal ever. I don't exactly agree with the order of the top 5, but it's pretty solid.

Just looking at their top 6:

1. Batman: The Animated Series Joker | 16:38
2. The Dark Knight Joker | 15:42
3. LEGO Batman Movie Joker | 15:05
4. Batman '66 Joker | 14:15
5. Batman: Under the Red Hood | 13:41
6. Batman '89 Joker | 12:49

I would probably have my top Jokers as:

1. Batman 66
2. Animated Series
3. Batman 89
4. Dark Knight

[TwoStep2888]

my top three Jokers:

TAS
TDK
66

[M. Steng]

This was a really good video which popped up in my recommendations on YouTube, highly suggest watching.

https://youtu.be/w-QhdzQo66o

[UCFish]

I am down for Bathos.

[chadizzy1]

Apparently Warner Bros is going to make a Red Son movie. This could be amazing if it's done true to source.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/super...-movie-a152045

[M. Steng]

There is no place in the current DCEU for a Red Son movie. Terrible idea.

[sheldonlevene]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

There is no place in the current DCEU for a Red Son movie. Terrible idea.

This. That being said, DC/WB won't do this and attempt to put it in any kind of continuity. Let alone, they won't do it period.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by sheldonlevene

This. That being said, DC/WB won't do this and attempt to put it in any kind of continuity. Let alone, they won't do it period.

I was discussing this with Kevin earlier, but what I'd love to see them do down the line (assuming JL is successful and it allows the DCEU to continue going forward) is a sort of combined Flashpoint/Injustice type storyline. The Flash messes with the Speed Force too much, causes a disruption in the timeline, and as a result the Injustice storyline comes to life. It would be a cool way to tie into the Knightmare sequence from BvS and would be a cool way to incorporate some different characters (like Green Lantern, Black Canary, a few others who have bigger roles in the Injustice stories).

[KevinTH]

Leave stories like Red Son to the animated movies. That would be a perfect fit for one of those releases. It would make absolutely no sense to release a movie like that within the current DCEU. Plus, it's time to focus on brightening up our hero in blue. His story and arc in MoS and BvS will be much stronger and poignant if he comes back in a more positive light. They can't keep sticking with dark Superman.

I'm cool with a Flashpoint/Injustice type direction, but DC has a lot to prove before they do that. The reactions to MoS and BvS were so divisive and Suicide Squad was a train wreck. We'd also be talking about a full on integrated movie universe like Marvel. I want to see the integrated universe, but I'm starting to think it would be better to see it done more loosely. Wonder Woman nailed it. I think I said this before in this thread, but quick flash of a Wayne truck, an email from Bruce and the picture from BvS. Done. Little things like that, a couple team up movies every few years and then just focus on making good solid character driven movies. It becomes a lot to keep up with when every movie is completely connected to each other.

If the were to go in that direction though, Mike, let's start hashing out the script.

[DMBZeppelin]

Originally Posted by KevinTH

His story and arc in MoS and BvS will be much stronger and poignant if he comes back in a more positive light. They can't keep sticking with dark Superman.

With how reactionary WB has been to this point, I'd imagine WW's success makes this a possibility.

Originally Posted by KevinTH

I'm cool with a Flashpoint/Injustice type direction, but DC has a lot to prove before they do that. The reactions to MoS and BvS were so divisive and Suicide Squad was a train wreck. We'd also be talking about a full on integrated movie universe like Marvel. I want to see the integrated universe, but I'm starting to think it would be better to see it done more loosely. Wonder Woman nailed it. I think I said this before in this thread, but quick flash of a Wayne truck, an email from Bruce and the picture from BvS. Done. Little things like that, a couple team up movies every few years and then just focus on making good solid character driven movies. It becomes a lot to keep up with when every movie is completely connected to each other.

I think DC is capable of having a well done shared universe. It just needs better planning. Develop good character driven movies and then figure out the easter eggs to connect the films.

The whole reason for DCEU's rocky start was BvS being solely created to setup Justice League, and Suicide Squad overall was pointless. Why did that story need to be told? How does it serve those characters or play into the shared universe?

Flash Point should be a down the line goal for DCEU. Make a bunch of great movies, have people really care about these characters, and then have Flash fuck everything up. I just worry if they use that story they won't be patient. Before making Red Son you need to care about this version of Superman.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by MOWJO8185

I never said script/scenes, that was you. Sure, they can be attributed to other people, but the actor still has to execute that, and there's probably a wide range in that execution depending on the actor.

I think Christian Bale played essentially three roles - an intense Batman that created fear in the hearts of criminals, a hedonistic playboy, and then the tortured Bruce that we see when nobody but Alfred is watching. And I think nailing all 3 of those in a single character is impressive and he demonstrated quite the range in making all 3 of those feel real. Yes, the screenwriters played a big role in creating that character, but Bale still had to pull it off.

I think Affleck basically had to play angry all the time, both as Batman and Bruce. And he did it fine, I have no complaints about it. But I don't know that he had to demonstrate a ton of range. And to be fair, it wasn't a solo movie and that anger obviously played a central role in the plot of the film so there wasn't room to show a lot else, so I don't hold it against him. He did fine with what he was given, but I didn't come away saying WOW about the job he did or anything.

The things I thought were AMAZING about the Batman character in Batman v Superman I don't think Affleck made much of a difference on, unless he designed the costume or performed his own stunts.

what he said

[jayman414]

Finally got around to seeing WW the other day and they nailed it. I really thought this a step in the right direction and has me excited for WW kicking some more ass in JL. The movie was well written, well directed, and the action was pretty good. Some of the CGI with her moving faster got a little tricky, but otherwise I thought it was really good movie. Also, setting this up in WWI was a fantastic idea.