Making a Murderer

[socopithy]

Originally Posted by Dramageek

And whether or not he murdered Teresa Halbach, the State of Wisconsin has the burden of proving that beyond a reasonable doubt, and I'm not fully convinced they did here.

Serial, Season 1. That was the whole point of the Adnan verdict.

Despite boatloads of reasonable doubt, human beings were on the jury and that's that.

I used to work for the NY State Supreme Court in the mental hygiene law area. I can't tell you how many patients would ask us for jury trials, simply because they knew that if they could put on a good face for a while and get us to do some fancy lawyering, they might get out because human beings are susceptible to emotional misjudgments.

[Dramageek]

Originally Posted by socopithy

Serial, Season 1. That was the whole point of the Adnan verdict.

Despite boatloads of reasonable doubt, human beings were on the jury and that's that.

I used to work for the NY State Supreme Court in the mental hygiene law area. I can't tell you how many patients would ask us for jury trials, simply because they knew that if they could put on a good face for a while and get us to do some fancy lawyering, they might get out because human beings are susceptible to emotional misjudgments.

No doubt it's far from a perfect system, and you can't really take human emotions and foibles out of the equation.

In this case and Serial Season 1 I'd still like to see the State not be very sloppy (or downright deceitful) in its investigation and the building of its case, especially when the result will be putting someone in jail for life. But that's only what I'd like, and it's certainly not reality.

[socopithy]

Originally Posted by Dramageek

No doubt it's far from a perfect system, and you can't really take human emotions and foibles out of the equation.

In this case and Serial Season 1 I'd still like to see the State not be very sloppy (or downright deceitful) in its investigation and the building of its case, especially when the result will be putting someone in jail for life. But that's only what I'd like, and it's certainly not reality.

Yep, it's just the nature of the system. Only way to avoid all of this is to hand over control of our justice system to AI.

And well... yeah.

[Rodey]

Why would Allen Iverson want to be in control of our justice system?

[scrock25]

Well, he is The Answer.

[42graystreet]

Originally Posted by dmbetc

How do Wisconsians feel about this case? What was the word on the street as it was happening?

I was just in Green Bay all weekend watching the Vikings game and talked to a lot of locals about it. Everyone has their opinions and they differ of course, but the prevailing wind is that they are glad this film was made because for 10 years all they heard was the prosecutions version of the crime. The media reports were as prejudicial as they look. They all thought Avery was guilty and there was nothing to question about it. They are happy to be given a fuller story.

[dmbetc]

Originally Posted by 42graystreet

I was just in Green Bay all weekend watching the Vikings game and talked to a lot of locals about it. Everyone has their opinions and they differ of course, but the prevailing wind is that they are glad this film was made because for 10 years all they heard was the prosecutions version of the crime. The media reports were as prejudicial as they look. They all thought Avery was guilty and there was nothing to question about it. They are happy to be given a fuller story.

[DaveHead36]

Originally Posted by scrock25

Well, he is The Answer.

and Ken Kratz is The Prize!

[thebridge15]

Originally Posted by scrock25

Well, he is The Answer.

[jcc522]

Ex boyfriend did it:

*couldn't remember when he last saw her(or even the time of day)
*dated her for five years, appeared salty when asked if there was romance between her and the new room mate
*easily accessed her phone records
*could have accessed her voicemail and deleted something
*probably did a shitty job of hiding her

Coulborn cleaned it up:

*found the car and called it in
*snatched the fire barrel on their property and burned her at the gravel pit
*spread her ashes at the bonfire pile
*parked her car on the property

Lenk found the evidence:

*is "God" and directed the women to the car
*put SA's blood in the car
*found the bullet in a deep corner of the garage
*found the key in plane sight

[thebridge15]

yeah I love how the ex boyfriend just "guessed" what her phone password was

[UNC41]

Originally Posted by 42graystreet

I was just in Green Bay all weekend watching the Vikings game and talked to a lot of locals about it. Everyone has their opinions and they differ of course, but the prevailing wind is that they are glad this film was made because for 10 years all they heard was the prosecutions version of the crime. The media reports were as prejudicial as they look. They all thought Avery was guilty and there was nothing to question about it. They are happy to be given a fuller story.

My wife is from Appleton. I had a chance to talk with a lot of people when we were back there last weekend, and heard similar things. Everyone I talked to assumed it was an open and shut murder case, and had pretty much zero knowledge of the alleged (ha!) police misconduct that took place.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by sbuzzz

Nice shot. Not sure what this has to do with anything I said, or is being said, but I hope it makes you feel better.

I understand the show tied those two things together very nicely and it made for a great story. But seriously, the one trial had absolutely nothing to do with the other. I do not know much about the unjust rape trial. I know plenty about the murder trial. Those two have nothing to do with each other.

Of course they made great arguments. These guys are very good at what they do. Not sure what the "doc" has to do with that, there was a trial.


People who have watched a biased "doc" came to the same conclusion? Shocking.

The two events are inextricably linked and to say otherwise is foolish.

[Route_2]

I can't recall, do they know forensically if she was actually raped or was that idea just based on Brendan's coerced confession? My thought is that because she was burned this is only a theory based on what they got Brendan to say, but I can't recall specifically.

[DaveHead36]

Originally Posted by thebridge15

yeah I love how the ex boyfriend just "guessed" what her phone password was

I thought her brother "guessed" the phone password. I think the ex-bf created the online account for her and then guessed her password for that. Which in itself is weird because he wouldn't need to guess a password if he created the account.

I don't know if the ex killed her, but I think at the least he left some incriminating voicemail and had help from her brother to erase them. The two of them were being so weird in that tv interview while the search was going on. They kept looking at each other like they were trying to get their stories straight on the fly.

I still think Brendan's stepdad was the killer, maybe with some help from Bobby (Brendan's brother). I think maybe he tried to attack her and she struggled and he killed her, maybe on purpose, maybe accidentally. He knows the cops will blame SA so he throws her in the back of her car, drives her to the quarry and burns her body. "Hides" the car. Moves her bones from the quarry to the burn pit. Police focus on SA and plant evidence to back up their theory.

[thebridge15]

was bobby the one who gave an alibi to the other guy, but they only alibi'd each other? that was incredibly weird

[TwoStep2888]

Originally Posted by dmbetc

How do Wisconsians feel about this case? What was the word on the street as it was happening?

I live in the area where this was ALL OVER the local news, it was exhausting, and at the time most everyone thought he was guilty. Haven't watched the show yet, don't know when/if I will, still tired of hearing about it from when it happened.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by TwoStep2888

I live in the area where this was ALL OVER the local news, it was exhausting, and at the time most everyone thought he was guilty. Haven't watched the show yet, don't know when/if I will, still tired of hearing about it from when it happened.

Just curious, does everyone really talk like that up there? I know the Averys weren't a very bright bunch but it seemed like a decent amount of people had a little bit of an accent. Sounded a lot like a Minnesotan's accent does.

[TwoStep2888]

a lot of people do, not everyone, I don't, but the upper midwest accent is strong around here

[scrock25]

Suuuuuuuuuuuuure you don't, Josh.

[jcc522]

Originally Posted by M. Steng

Just curious, does everyone really talk like that up there? I know the Averys weren't a very bright bunch but it seemed like a decent amount of people had a little bit of an accent. Sounded a lot like a Minnesotan's accent does.

Every phone conversation:

*Hello
**Yeah
*Yeah
**Yeah
*Yeah
**Yeah
*I didn't do it

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by jcc522

Every phone conversation:

*Hello
**Yeah
*Yeah
**Yeah
*Yeah
**Yeah
*I didn't do it

With an "ok then" thrown in there every once in a blue for good measure

I'm on board with the theory that Brendan's older brother and/or his step-dad has something to do with it. I believe those were the two who alibied for each other and only for each other. Seemed way too convenient for two people who had the same access to the property that Steven did to have such a strange coincidence of passing each other on the street or whatever it was.

[DaveHead36]

Originally Posted by thebridge15

was bobby the one who gave an alibi to the other guy, but they only alibi'd each other? that was incredibly weird

Yeah, he alibi'd scott tadych (his and Brendan's stepdad) and vice versa. He also claimed that he heard Steven make the joke about burying the body when in fact someone else made that claim on the police report. Also one of them apparently had a .22 rifle like SA's that they were trying to sell right after. Maybe just a bunch of coincidences, but should have been a bunch of red flags for the cops to investigate further at the very least.

[rconverse]

Originally Posted by scrock25

The whole thing is completely fucked up regardless of which way you sway. So incredibly fucked up.

Yep. Every single thing about this trial was tainted, even the DA. I don't know if he's innocent or guilty but the way this all shook out is completely unacceptable when considering this person is stuck in prison the rest of their life. And, that's regardless of the 18 years he was falsely imprisoned.

Again, I don't know if this guy is innocent or not but you're going to be hard pressed to convince me this guy received a fair trial or anything anywhere close.

[rconverse]

Originally Posted by sbuzzz

I understand the show tied those two things together very nicely and it made for a great story. But seriously, the one trial had absolutely nothing to do with the other. I do not know much about the unjust rape trial. I know plenty about the murder trial. Those two have nothing to do with each other.

I think the bolded is arguable. You don't find it odd that the one time cops broke surveillance on the real rapist is when that girl got raped, the cops' sketch artist drew a picture from Avery's mug shot and railroaded Avery the first time that there was some bad police work from that county? Then, even after that they were allowed anywhere near that site for any reason whatsoever? That's insane to believe, imo.

[trd1610]

Originally Posted by rconverse

I think the bolded is arguable. You don't find it odd that the one time cops broke surveillance on the real rapist is when that girl got raped, the cops' sketch artist drew a picture from Avery's mug shot and railroaded Avery the first time that there was some bad police work from that county? Then, even after that they were allowed anywhere near that site for any reason whatsoever? That's insane to believe, imo.

Not only that but Coulburn and Lenk, two of the officers involved in the cover up of the rape case, were the ones who found the key in the bedroom on the 4th day, when the county police were specifically not supposed to be there.

And him being imprisoned for 18 years, even for a crime he didn't commit, establishes a negative connotation of him immediately. He was not given the presumption of innocence until proven guilty at all in this murder case, and there are plenty of details that leave reasonable doubt.

[dmbetc]

Originally Posted by trd1610

Not only that but Coulburn and Lenk, two of the officers involved in the cover up of the rape case, were the ones who found the key in the bedroom on the 4th day, when the county police were specifically not supposed to be there.

And him being imprisoned for 18 years, even for a crime he didn't commit, establishes a negative connotation of him immediately. He was not given the presumption of innocence until proven guilty at all in this murder case, and there are plenty of details that leave reasonable doubt.

and the SEVENTH time the room was searched. "oh, hey look! a key! right out in the open. Golly gee, how did we miss that the last 6 times we thoroughly searched this place?"

Also absurd that they had that much time with the property. I've never heard of such a thing.

[scrock25]

... it's the first thing I come back to when thinking about the show/case. Out of everything.

[jcc522]

Lets pretend that he didn't get sentenced to like and was sentenced to 25yrs. Think they'd let his 18yrs count as timed served?

[cpxc.]

http://www.tmz.com/2016/01/05/making...len-kachinsky/