What (besides politics) irritates you?

[JRS1386]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThnCjec6Gu4

Did you use these guys, stink?

[zajDmB1]

Originally Posted by justink

so... is affirmative action NOT judging someone based on race and holding that person to a disadvantage and another race to an advantage?

because that's the definition of a racist program/policy.

no?

You're looking at AA waaay to cynically.

White/Asian student X who grew up in strong middle, upper middle class, or rich family, went to private school or decent-to-great public school, good grades, etc is going to be selected into a number of schools.

Black/hispanic student x who grew up in a poor environment, shitty school, still got decent to great grades despite bad teachers, not too much money to afford college, etc could use a leg up because they will not have that many options.

Now, if you show me data that shows schools are just admitting socio-economically well-off minorities and claiming them as AA, then sure, that I'd take issue with. To my knowledge, while I'm sure there are some, it's mostly disadvantaged minorities. Because let's be real, a rich black kid with mediocre grades is getting in to schools because he's rich way more than because he's black.

The thing I find odd about the right's obsession with getting rid of AA is that you shit on poor minorities for myriad things, but also don't want to give one shred of help to get kids away from the cycle of poverty and lesser education. You hate 'poor, dumb black people' so much, let's get their kids in schools so that that generation grows up better. It's almost like you want to keep perpetuating all the issues in poorer communities to make sure there's always someone you can look down on.

[justink]

What you said...

Originally Posted by zajDmB1

You're looking at AA waaay to cynically.

White/Asian student X who grew up in strong middle, upper middle class, or rich family, went to private school or decent-to-great public school, good grades, etc is going to be selected into a number of schools.

Black/hispanic student x who grew up in a poor environment, shitty school, still got decent to great grades despite bad teachers, not too much money to afford college, etc could use a leg up because they will not have that many options.

Now, if you show me data that shows schools are just admitting socio-economically well-off minorities and claiming them as AA, then sure, that I'd take issue with. To my knowledge, while I'm sure there are some, it's mostly disadvantaged minorities. Because let's be real, a rich black kid with mediocre grades is getting in to schools because he's rich way more than because he's black.

The thing I find odd about the right's obsession with getting rid of AA is that you shit on poor minorities for myriad things, but also don't want to give one shred of help to get kids away from the cycle of poverty and lesser education. You hate 'poor, dumb black people' so much, let's get their kids in schools so that that generation grows up better. It's almost like you want to keep perpetuating all the issues in poorer communities to make sure there's always someone you can look down on.

What i read...

Originally Posted by zajDmB1

Yeaaaaaaaaaaah.... But it's racist against white people, so that's cool.

I get that people want to "lift people up". But the fact is, no matter what color you are, what school you go to, or how much money your family makes (that's not even on the application for admission that i recall, maybe it's changed. student aid, sure, but that's after selection), EVERYONE (especially in Texas) HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY TO BE VALEDICTORIAN or at the very least, top 10% for automatic admittance.

Like someone else said... Private schools like Rice, they can and do whatever the fuck they want. That doesn't make it ethically right, but whatever, private clubs/schools can do that. There's plenty of men only golf clubs out there.

State schools like Texas have no right judging anyone by skin color. Especially when every single person applying had the same opportunity to get good grades or be in the top 10%.

putting a quota on "we need this many x color people" is fucked up.

[ExistenceNow]

Originally Posted by zajDmB1

You're looking at AA waaay to cynically.

White/Asian student X who grew up in strong middle, upper middle class, or rich family, went to private school or decent-to-great public school, good grades, etc is going to be selected into a number of schools.

Black/hispanic student x who grew up in a poor environment, shitty school, still got decent to great grades despite bad teachers, not too much money to afford college, etc could use a leg up because they will not have that many options.

Now, if you show me data that shows schools are just admitting socio-economically well-off minorities and claiming them as AA, then sure, that I'd take issue with. To my knowledge, while I'm sure there are some, it's mostly disadvantaged minorities. Because let's be real, a rich black kid with mediocre grades is getting in to schools because he's rich way more than because he's black.

The thing I find odd about the right's obsession with getting rid of AA is that you shit on poor minorities for myriad things, but also don't want to give one shred of help to get kids away from the cycle of poverty and lesser education. You hate 'poor, dumb black people' so much, let's get their kids in schools so that that generation grows up better. It's almost like you want to keep perpetuating all the issues in poorer communities to make sure there's always someone you can look down on.

That was what I was thinking with Mindy Kaling's brother. He was probably helped into med school by the fact that he was rich and his mom was a doctor moreso than checking the black box.

[zajDmB1]

Originally Posted by justink

What you said...



What i read...




I get that people want to "lift people up". But the fact is, no matter what color you are, what school you go to, or how much money your family makes (that's not even on the application for admission that i recall, maybe it's changed. student aid, sure, but that's after selection), EVERYONE (especially in Texas) HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY TO BE VALEDICTORIAN or at the very least, top 10% for automatic admittance.

Like someone else said... Private schools like Rice, they can and do whatever the fuck they want. That doesn't make it ethically right, but whatever, private clubs/schools can do that. There's plenty of men only golf clubs out there.

State schools like Texas have no right judging anyone by skin color. Especially when every single person applying had the same opportunity to get good grades or be in the top 10%.

putting a quota on "we need this many x color people" is fucked up.

Of course you read it that way because you need a scapegoat for your life. Poor minorities are the perfect one. They're really holding you and all us other white people back :roll eyes

As for the first bold, it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure 1) you apply for FAFSA or whatever before you even apply to schools a lot of the time, which schools have access to, so know how much money you need and 2) while you don't put income you put like a family contribution number on there. I have friends who's parents paid literally 100% of their tuition by cutting checks. While they are talented people otherwise, I'm sure that helped immensely.

For the second bold, here's what you and people like you don't get. When you think of some black kid in the inner city, you can't just put your current brain in that situation and say "oh well shit, I'd just do this, this and this and be good to go!" You'd be a different person. You'd have grown up in an environment where family/community/academic help would be severely limited to what any white suburban kid grew up with. And yes, you can point to any number of poor black kids that worked their way out of there. But why just rely on that? If we can help more kids get an education, what is the harm in that? Sorry your ginger knight was too dumb to get into UT, but I'm sure she had plenty of other options because she obviously comes from at least a bit of money. Some actually decent-grade black kids from lesser situations might not be so lucky.

What if a school specifically built a dorm and hired a couple more professors for the sole purpose of bringing in 200 disadvantaged minority students. Would you be OK with that, or is that still taking away spots from white kids?

[justink]

Originally Posted by zajDmB1

Of course you read it that way because you need a scapegoat for your life. Poor minorities are the perfect one. They're really holding you and all us other white people back :roll eyes

As for the first bold, it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure 1) you apply for FAFSA or whatever before you even apply to schools a lot of the time, which schools have access to, so know how much money you need and 2) while you don't put income you put like a family contribution number on there. I have friends who's parents paid literally 100% of their tuition by cutting checks. While they are talented people otherwise, I'm sure that helped immensely.

For the second bold, here's what you and people like you don't get. When you think of some black kid in the inner city, you can't just put your current brain in that situation and say "oh well shit, I'd just do this, this and this and be good to go!" You'd be a different person. You'd have grown up in an environment where family/community/academic help would be severely limited to what any white suburban kid grew up with. And yes, you can point to any number of poor black kids that worked their way out of there. But why just rely on that? If we can help more kids get an education, what is the harm in that? Sorry your ginger knight was too dumb to get into UT, but I'm sure she had plenty of other options because she obviously comes from at least a bit of money. Some actually decent-grade black kids from lesser situations might not be so lucky.

What if a school specifically built a dorm and hired a couple more professors for the sole purpose of bringing in 200 disadvantaged minority students. Would you be OK with that, or is that still taking away spots from white kids?

1st: if she has money, according to you, she'd get in.

2nd: what's this "disadvantaged" tag? everybody in America has 12 years of education (minimum) before college. public school is actually the best form of public assistance that i can think of. public / free school wasn't always a thing. that's 12 years of the same advantage to learn and apply yourself. "disadvantaged" would be a kid applying to college who first started school in the 9th grade.

it doesn't matter if i live in a crack hotel and you live in a mansion. if we go to public school, we have the same advantage/level playing field for those 8 hours in class day in and day out.

[zajDmB1]

Originally Posted by justink

1st: if she has money, according to you, she'd get in.

2nd: what's this "disadvantaged" tag? everybody in America has 12 years of education (minimum) before college. public school is actually the best form of public assistance that i can think of. public / free school wasn't always a thing. that's 12 years of the same advantage to learn and apply yourself. "disadvantaged" would be a kid applying to college who first started school in the 9th grade.

it doesn't matter if i live in a crack hotel and you live in a mansion. if we go to public school, we have the same advantage/level playing field for those 8 hours in class day in and day out.

If you think the public school I went to, or the public school 20 minutes down the street, or any of other probably thousands of public schools in areas with a very healthy average income is the same as inner city high schools, please stop talking right now, because you have literally 0 idea how life works.

[scrock25]

Originally Posted by justink

it doesn't matter if i live in a crack hotel and you live in a mansion. if we go to public school, we have the same advantage/level playing field for those 8 hours in class day in and day out.

Absolutely fucking false

[JRS1386]

Yes, because every school has the same resources, quality of teachers, curriculum, etc. Stink you way off on that point

[JRS1386]

Channing Tatum: Actor Says Sentencing in Stanford Rape Case ‘Doesn’t Make Any Sense’

Thats a facebook trend on my feed. Who gives a shit about what Magic Mike has to say about the case.

[justink]

Originally Posted by JRS1386

Thats a facebook trend on my feed. Who gives a shit about what Magic Mike has to say about the case.

i had the same reaction. it's the canned (hey, what's my PR person thing about this?) response anyway.

[justink]

John Vorst

He fucked over a lot of people camden n2 last night. Apparently he sold them print out paper tickets that were lawns and then photoshopped them to day PIT GA rather than Lawn GA. A lot of them. Security caught on and started sending people to the Lawn. Dude probably financed a lot of hotels and shows with that bullshit last night. like, a non-fan scammer doing that is expected. not a fan that actually goes to shows. that's a good way to get your ass beat six months or two years later.

caveat emptor, i guess...

[JRS1386]

No idea who he is, but he sounds like a dick. Fraud isn't fun

[justink]

Originally Posted by zajDmB1

If you think the public school I went to, or the public school 20 minutes down the street, or any of other probably thousands of public schools in areas with a very healthy average income is the same as inner city high schools, please stop talking right now, because you have literally 0 idea how life works.

you realize there's a vast window in public schools, right? you remember the lambo conversation...

i'm not wealthy by any means but my son is in the same school with the "$8mm to 1.5mm" neighborhood five minutes away.

he's got a rainbow in his classroom but they all have the same teacher.

[JRS1386]

Originally Posted by justink

you realize there's a vast window in public schools, right? you remember the lambo conversation...

i'm not wealthy by any means but my son is in the same school with the "$8mm to 1.5mm" neighborhood five minutes away.

he's got a rainbow in his classroom but they all have the same teacher.

Yea, but how does that compare to the kids who are all in the poor neighborhoods that don't go to school with the super rich?

[justink]

Originally Posted by JRS1386

Yea, but how does that compare to the kids who are all in the poor neighborhoods that don't go to school with the super rich?

then they're all on the same level playing field for that top 10% prize. they all have the same teachers and same resources.

that's the point of the 10% automatic admittance. it's fair to all races, incomes, schools, etc. there's absolutely no reason to add an extra 20% advantage to college entrance based off skin color.

if we're going by scrock and zaj's model that "money = smarts", then schools with the most diversity and more rich kids (like my son's) have the most disadvantage than a mostly poverty school. but that is ridiculous.

[bartender_man]

Modern day society.

[zajDmB1]

Originally Posted by justink

you realize there's a vast window in public schools, right? you remember the lambo conversation...

Yes, and do you realize that a lot of those kids from shitty situations go back to said shitty situation when the final bell rings? Not to mention the 2-3 months in the summer where they might have 0 educational stimulation. Summer learning loss is a huge thing among inner city kids.

My well-off public high school had kids from trailer parks and low-middle class small town america types up through kids who had Range Rovers at 16. So I understand income diversity in public schools very well.

I also know that there are schools where that's either non-existent or completely inconsequential to those kids. My gf's niece and nephew go to NYC public school. No idea how many students are there but a group of like 40 well-off families essentially fund all the arts/extracurriculars that the city/state doesn't, for the entire school, every year through a couple fundraisers. So what do you think the parents that don't participate in that are doing with their kids when they get home? At best they just don't have the means to raise funds and are working so don't have the time to help, at worst they just don't give a shit. And there are plenty of other schools that aren't even lucky enough to have those rich families. So why keep punishing these kids when they try to go to college?

Originally Posted by justink

then they're all on the same level playing field for that top 10% prize. they all have the same teachers and same resources.

that's the point of the 10% automatic admittance. it's fair to all races, incomes, schools, etc. there's absolutely no reason to add an extra 20% advantage to college entrance based off skin color.

if we're going by scrock and zaj's model that "money = smarts", then schools with the most diversity and more rich kids (like my son's) have the most disadvantage than a mostly poverty school. but that is ridiculous.

What percentage of classes do you think is affirmative action? You act like literally every single minority kid in college beat out some whitey solely on race. Look, the school my parents went to, which I won't name but it's a top school, requires prospective students to interview with a local alum as part of the admission process, and my mom has done that my whole life. And, especially when I was starting to think about schools, we've had many discussions about what looks good. If you walked into my house for an interview, and you were some nerdy white or asian kid with 1600 SATs, president of the Chemistry and chess clubs, play violin, whatever, guess what? You might not get in because they've already got 100 of those kids.

So diversity isn't just about 'hey, we need to black folks in here!' It's about actual intellectual/creative diversity. When I got into college my strengths were decent grades, good at saxophone, and pretty good at lacrosse. On a scale of Typical Suburban White Guys, I was like an 8. Luckily I got into my first choice school but I guarantee you there would have been others saying 'I've already got 200 of these, why do I need one more?" if I had applied to more.

[justink]

Originally Posted by zajDmB1

Yes, and do you realize that a lot of those kids from shitty situations go back to said shitty situation when the final bell rings?

what does your home life have to do with how you perform in the classroom? what does your home life have to do with how you perform on a ballcourt or field? awful lot of lower incomes performing very well in the MLB, NFL, and NBA. read Dennis Rodman or Charles Barkley's autobiographies for christ sake.

or... as happened with my first grade teacher, so... forty or fifty years ago? she went back home with a rich kid and her father gave her an entire encyclopedia britannica.

the inclusion and heterogenous mixture of students is good for ALL students.

you'll never be able to explain how that's a bad thing.

your entire stance is fundamentally flawed and racist.

[ExistenceNow]

I think my essays got me into UT. My grades and scores were borderline for UT (though definitely better than that ginger hack), and I wasn't 10%'er, so I think my writing got me in.

[justink]

really want to know how many draft pick bumps a white, asian or hispanic guy gets in the NBA draft from zaj... by his metric, we need to reform that.

[zajDmB1]

Originally Posted by justink

what does your home life have to do with how you perform in the classroom? what does your home life have to do with how you perform on a ballcourt or field? awful lot of lower incomes performing very well in the MLB, NFL, and NBA. read Dennis Rodman or Charles Barkley's autobiographies for christ sake.

or... as happened with my first grade teacher, so... forty or fifty years ago? she went back home with a rich kid and her father gave her an entire encyclopedia britannica.

the inclusion and heterogenous mixture of students is good for ALL students.

you'll never be able to explain how that's a bad thing.

your entire stance is fundamentally flawed and racist.

Are...you serious? Don't you have a kid? You truly think there'd be no difference in his performance at school if he had you helping him with homework, even caring if he had homework for christ's sake, being a loving father, stimulating his brain in other ways, with vacations, trips to museums, making sure he's hanging out with kids who also value education, etc and if you just didn't give a shit how he did in school, didn't encourage him, didn't/couldn't help with homework, didn't care who he hung out with, etc? Seriously? I could barely get passed that first sentence of yours without hurling myself out my apartment window. Wow.

And the rest of this just makes no sense. I don't know what you think heterogenous means, but it means nothing in this sentence. Regardless of what you think you're saying, if you're talking about a mixture of students, I'm certainly not the one saying inclusion is bad. So I don't need to explain how that's bad because I'm not saying anything like that.

So my stance is not fundamentally flawed at all, you're just fundamentally an idiot.

[scrock25]

[M. Steng]

I get why schools and states have affirmative action policies, but what difference does it make if I'm sitting next to a poor black kid from the hood or a dumb blonde rich bitch while I'm trying to learn protons and neutrons in chemistry class? I never understood the "different perspectives" argument that gets lumped in with AA. My high school was 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic (more or less), I honestly don't think I would have cared one bit if that was the makeup or it was a classroom full of Hitler's youth when we were going over the themes of Farenheit 451.

[YouNeverKnow25]

yeah that's high school. AA applies to college. the thought process is that the learning done in college stretches beyond the classroom, which I tend to agree with.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by YouNeverKnow25

yeah that's high school. AA applies to college. the thought process is that the learning done in college stretches beyond the classroom, which I tend to agree with.

Yeah I know, I was just using the diverse makeup of my high school as an example. You do learn a lot out of the classroom as far as life goes, but the whole reason you're there is for school.

Birds of a feather flock together...look at most college campuses and a lot of people's friends are the same race they are. Look at the composite picture of any traditional frat or sorority in America and you'll have a few token minorities, but mostly white. There are also all-Black frats/sororities, and every racial group has its own club/affiliation. People naturally segregate themselves and want to be around people that are like them.

Definitely not saying I disagree with AA, but if we're being real what good is it really doing from a "diverse perspectives" point of view?

[bamadavefan15]

We had really good discussions in quite a few of my college classes. Having diverse backgrounds makes those good discussions and allows you to see perspectives that you wouldn't see if there is no diversity.

Like I've said though, diversity of skin color is not as important as diversity of background.

[M. Steng]

Originally Posted by bamadavefan15

We had really good discussions in quite a few of my college classes. Having diverse backgrounds makes those good discussions and allows you to see perspectives that you wouldn't see if there is no diversity.

Like I've said though, diversity of skin color is not as important as diversity of background.

I agree 100% with the last sentence. The two of those are often conflated, though sometimes they're intertwined.

[justink]

Originally Posted by zajDmB1

Are...you serious? Don't you have a kid? You truly think there'd be no difference in his performance at school if he had you helping him with homework, even caring if he had homework for christ's sake, being a loving father, stimulating his brain in other ways, with vacations, trips to museums, making sure he's hanging out with kids who also value education, etc and if you just didn't give a shit how he did in school, didn't encourage him, didn't/couldn't help with homework, didn't care who he hung out with, etc? Seriously? I could barely get passed that first sentence of yours without hurling myself out my apartment window. Wow.

So, are you saying that white kids have better "opportunities and privilege" because black kids have shitty parents?

because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

and that's extremely racist.

[YouNeverKnow25]

you guys I don't want to get anyone's hopes up or alarm anyone but I think our detective is about *thisclose* to finding The Real Racist ™