**NCAA Basketball Thread** - Page 1013 - Antsmarching.org Forums - Dave Matthews Band Discussion
Old 03-23-2009, 08:58 PM   #30361
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Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

You can say that Duke has a potential to play better D than FSU (Which they do) but FSU was more efficient (Which they were.)
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  • Old 03-23-2009, 09:03 PM   #30362
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    I really don't understand how there is a better way to determine who is better defensively than by who gives up less points per possession. The only thing I can come up with is it doesn't support your argument. Still, Florida State gave up less points per game, held teams to a much worse shooting percentage, held teams to a lower three-point percentage, blocked more shots and had the DPOY in the ACC.
    You could look at strength of schedule as well if you wanted. Either way, it's a crapshoot, both of them are great defensive teams.

    I stand by not liking Pomeroy's efficiency ratings though. Just go through and look at some player efficiency ratings and you'll find many laughable ones.
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    Old 03-23-2009, 09:12 PM   #30363
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    You could look at strength of schedule as well if you wanted. Either way, it's a crapshoot, both of them are great defensive teams.

    I stand by not liking Pomeroy's efficiency ratings though. Just go through and look at some player efficiency ratings and you'll find many laughable ones.
    Duke and FSU had the 15th and 17th rated schedules in the nation respectively. Duke was barely better than a North Carolina team whose defense everyone loves to rip on, despite the fact that it is above average, just not great. Duke finished 11th in the ACC in defensive field goal percentage. They were not consistently a great defense this year. They were much better offensively.
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    Old 03-23-2009, 09:21 PM   #30364
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    BLAAAAAAAAHH 3 more days of downtime.
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    Old 03-23-2009, 10:12 PM   #30365
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Anyone else using the WBC as a temporary reliever for March Madness withdrawals? Haven't seen much of the Classic, but this Championship game is awesome.
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    Old 03-23-2009, 10:13 PM   #30366
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    You can't call Teague a point guard and then claim that Douglas and Rice are not. I'll give you McClinton, but the other two are definitely as much of a point guard as Teague.



    Duke isn't even the best defensive team in the ACC. Pitt is worse than Clay's precious North Carolina defensively. The SEC was definitely worse than the ACC this year, and the Big 12 and Pac 10 were very similar. You're right that the Big East was better than the ACC this year, but not about much else in that post.
    Pitt is better defensively imo. Stats are hard to go by since they play different schedules. I sure hope they play each other. I think Pitt can get a stop when the really need it, but I'm not as confident in NC. As for Teague, hes like Rice and Douglas in the sense that he's a score-first point guard, but I think he has better PG skills, ie distributing, managing the game, etc.
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    Old 03-23-2009, 10:14 PM   #30367
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    Anyone else using the WBC as a temporary reliever for March Madness withdrawals? Haven't seen much of the Classic, but this Championship game is awesome.
    I watched USA yesterday, but Davidson vs. St. Marys is on ESPN2 right now.
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    Old 03-23-2009, 10:17 PM   #30368
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    I watched USA yesterday, but Davidson vs. St. Marys is on ESPN2 right now.
    Oh shit, you're right. I'll check that out later. I always forget about the NIT
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    Old 03-23-2009, 10:51 PM   #30369
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Baseball sucks, but I have been watching the women's tourney because my team is a #1 seed and the sweet 16/elite 8 are in OKC. Lady Sooners play tomorrow so at least that'll give me something to do one of the off days.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 05:57 AM   #30370
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    I'd like to somewhat chime in on the whole 'best PG in the nation argument'... Flynn & Lawson to me are very similar players. Both play at high speeds with unnatural efficiency. Lawson turns it over less and has a higher shooting percentage, but Flynn plays with lesser (still good) talent around him than Lawson does, so I'm sure that contributes somewhat to the lesser percentages--Flynn is asked to do a little bit more, seeing as he doesn't have a former POY playing alongside him.

    The thing that I see with Flynn is that he is getting better at a shocking rate compared to not only Ty Lawson, but everybody else in the country right now. It may have some relation to Lawson's injury in the latter part of the season, but Jonny Flynn just gets better faster than other players. At the beginning of the year, nobody thought that Flynn was on par with the elite PGs in the country, but now he's being considered as one of the 2 or 3 best--hands down. Jonny Flynn will be the best PG in the nation next year, and it won't really be all that close. If you look at how quickly he has improved from when he stepped on SUs campus to now, it's amazing how much better he's gotten.

    As far as the other PGs mentioned, Lucas is a great player--he is vastly underrated and gets less love because he's in a lousy conference. Fields I hate, but you have to hand it to him, he wins. That's all he does. Numbers be damned, Fields just wins games, and does what he needs to do when he needs to do it. Collison is a major player, and the only reason we're not talking about him nearly as much as a national great PG is because UCLA took such a huge dip down this year. If all those freshman and sophmores on UCLA were sophmores and juniors, they could have easily made it 4 Final Fours in a row. Collins amazes me every time I see him--He's got an amazing basketball IQ--Something very difficult to come by.

    Finally, I offer up Grevies Vasquez. He's got the size, the talent, and the instincts to become a phenomenal NBA player. That MD team this year was about the worst talent wise that Gary Williams has had in maybe 15 years. Vasquez literally took that team on his back to beat UNC, Michigan State, and Wake and eventually earn a spot in the NCAA tournament. There's something about Vasquez that only he possesses. It's somewhere between greatness and craziness, but it's good, and it's going to make him a superstar on the next level. Vasquez is overlooked a lot when it comes to the 'greatest PG in the nation' debate, but he really is on that top tier. Much like Collison though, he's overlooked because of a lack of surrounding talent that makes it harder for him to shine.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 06:08 AM   #30371
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Agreed pretty much on all counts. Flynn has really come into his own down the stretch, where as Lawson has more or less been the same guy all season (though he is vastly improved from last season: smarter, outside shot, etc). I like that you gave Grevies some love, he's a little slow and I think that could hurt him in the NBA, but his size and game IQ is something you can't teach.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 06:13 AM   #30372
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    Agreed pretty much on all counts. Flynn has really come into his own down the stretch, where as Lawson has more or less been the same guy all season (though he is vastly improved from last season: smarter, outside shot, etc). I like that you gave Grevies some love, he's a little slow and I think that could hurt him in the NBA, but his size and game IQ is something you can't teach.
    The biggest difference between the college & pro game, outside of the levels of talent, is size. So many guys in the past with NBA talent have been unable to cut it in the NBA because of their size. Vasquez has that, the smarts, the drive, & the talent to go down as a hall of fame NBA player.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 06:19 AM   #30373
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Very true. That's just the one setback I see with him.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 09:27 AM   #30374
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    Finally, I offer up Grevies Vasquez. He's got the size, the talent, and the instincts to become a phenomenal NBA player. That MD team this year was about the worst talent wise that Gary Williams has had in maybe 15 years. Vasquez literally took that team on his back to beat UNC, Michigan State, and Wake and eventually earn a spot in the NCAA tournament. There's something about Vasquez that only he possesses. It's somewhere between greatness and craziness, but it's good, and it's going to make him a superstar on the next level. Vasquez is overlooked a lot when it comes to the 'greatest PG in the nation' debate, but he really is on that top tier. Much like Collison though, he's overlooked because of a lack of surrounding talent that makes it harder for him to shine.
    Yeah but he's a douche. I could see him being the point guard version of Ron Artest.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 10:23 AM   #30375
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

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    Yeah but he's a douche. I could see him being the point guard version of Ron Artest.
    Glad to see you're bringing relevant information to the fight.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 10:36 AM   #30376
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    Glad to see you're bringing relevant information to the fight.
    Huh? What fight?

    It was just an offhand comment. It's not the ultimate point I have. Geez.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 10:38 AM   #30377
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    Huh? What fight?

    It was just an offhand comment. It's not the ultimate point I have. Geez.
    Well then what's the ultimate point you have? Why would you say something if there was no point to it?
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    Old 03-24-2009, 11:32 AM   #30378
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

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    Well then what's the ultimate point you have? Why would you say something if there was no point to it?
    Here's something that may be news to you: This is an Internet message board. This is NOT a Harvard debate championship match.

    Holy crap.

    And besides, Vasquez is a major douche. Thus, I'd never put him in my top five point guards. And also, he only started playing point full time during the Carolina game which he happened to play well. And he played relatively well since then, but guys like Lawson, Flynn, Mills, Collins, etc. have been better.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 11:42 AM   #30379
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    What is your reason for saying Vasquez is a douche? Because you've seen him talking on the court a lot? That doesn't mean he's a douche.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 11:45 AM   #30380
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    Here's something that may be news to you: This is an Internet message board. This is NOT a Harvard debate championship match.

    Holy crap.

    And besides, Vasquez is a major douche. Thus, I'd never put him in my top five point guards. And also, he only started playing point full time during the Carolina game which he happened to play well. And he played relatively well since then, but guys like Lawson, Flynn, Mills, Collins, etc. have been better.
    Vasquez has been playing the point since he was a freshman. I don't know what you're even talking about in that regard. He's got a more scoring mentallity than a lot of the other guys we're talking about, but he's no question been playing the point since he came to Maryland.

    I wouldn't take a guy out of the running for best anything in sports just because of his attitude. I agree that he's had some issues with getting too fired up, but that doesn't really have a bearing on his abilities. And I do agree, the other guys you've mentioned have all been better--My point was that they're surrounded by much better talent than Vasquez is, and the fact that he got Maryland as far as he did proves just how great a player he actually is.

    Don't understand the crapbag attitude though.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 11:47 AM   #30381
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

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    What is your reason for saying Vasquez is a douche? Because you've seen him talking on the court a lot? That doesn't mean he's a douche.
    The guy just hates Vasquez, which is fine, but in order to prove that he's right he's throwing fake facts at me.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 12:54 PM   #30382
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    What is your reason for saying Vasquez is a douche? Because you've seen him talking on the court a lot? That doesn't mean he's a douche.
    He called out his own fans, he gestures to crowds, he talks smack, he argues with officials and in general, just a jerk.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:03 PM   #30383
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

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    He called out his own fans, he gestures to crowds, he talks smack, he argues with officials and in general, just a jerk.
    He should have called out his own fans. They're assholes. He talks a lot--He's a competitor. He does not, however, argue with officials any more than other players... That just isn't true.

    I understand thinking he's a crummy guy. I'm a Maryland fan and like him--If I didn't like Maryland I would hate him. Same goes for Syracuse and Eric Devendorf... If he was playing for Connecticut I would hate him with my entire soul, but because he goes to my alma matta I love him.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:03 PM   #30384
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    Vasquez has been playing the point since he was a freshman. I don't know what you're even talking about in that regard. He's got a more scoring mentallity than a lot of the other guys we're talking about, but he's no question been playing the point since he came to Maryland.

    I wouldn't take a guy out of the running for best anything in sports just because of his attitude. I agree that he's had some issues with getting too fired up, but that doesn't really have a bearing on his abilities. And I do agree, the other guys you've mentioned have all been better--My point was that they're surrounded by much better talent than Vasquez is, and the fact that he got Maryland as far as he did proves just how great a player he actually is.

    Don't understand the crapbag attitude though.
    He hasn't been THE point guard until as of the UNC game. Remember the whole big story about how he went to Gary Williams and asked if he could play it?

    And I'm looking at his stats here. He's a 40 percent shooter and hits 32 percent from three. He averages 17.5 a game and 5.0 assists, but he turns it 2.8 times - and that's only being the primary ball handler for about half the season. So he's got an assist to turnover of 1.8, doesn't shoot the ball that well and is a jerkface on the court.

    And I don't really buy the "talent surronding him" argument. Maryland's got players. He just happens to be the best one. I realize Ty Lawson is working with some seriously talented players, but what about Eric Maynor or Patty Mills? They've got mid-major teammates. Sherron Collins has got one player back that contributed anything last year on the team and he's got better numbers. I think if Vasquez was truly the elite player you think he is, Maryland would have done better than a 10. Great players elevate their mediocre teams. I'm not convinced Vasquez is great.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:07 PM   #30385
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
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    He should have called out his own fans. They're assholes. He talks a lot--He's a competitor. He does not, however, argue with officials any more than other players... That just isn't true.

    I understand thinking he's a crummy guy. I'm a Maryland fan and like him--If I didn't like Maryland I would hate him. Same goes for Syracuse and Eric Devendorf... If he was playing for Connecticut I would hate him with my entire soul, but because he goes to my alma matta I love him.
    Oooohhh. You're a Maryland fan. I get it now. I see what you got uptight when I said he was was douche. I was thrown off by the Cuse avatar (fan of two schools? hmmm....). And what does that mean, he talks a lot because he's a competitor? The shushing opponents crowds and hollering at fans... that's because he's competitive? Or he's a jerk? Nobody is more competitive than guys like Blake Griffin or Tyler Hansbrough and they do none of that. It's not neccessary. All it does is make you look like a huge tool.

    Yeah, everybody hates Vasquez. And everybody hates Devendorf. Congrats on having two of the most disliked players in the country on your two favorite teams.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:24 PM   #30386
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HolyCow View Post
    Oooohhh. You're a Maryland fan. I get it now. I see what you got uptight when I said he was was douche. I was thrown off by the Cuse avatar (fan of two schools? hmmm....). And what does that mean, he talks a lot because he's a competitor? The shushing opponents crowds and hollering at fans... that's because he's competitive? Or he's a jerk? Nobody is more competitive than guys like Blake Griffin or Tyler Hansbrough and they do none of that. It's not neccessary. All it does is make you look like a huge tool.

    Yeah, everybody hates Vasquez. And everybody hates Devendorf. Congrats on having two of the most disliked players in the country on your two favorite teams.
    Two words...Greg Paulus
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:27 PM   #30387
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by HolyCow View Post
    Oooohhh. You're a Maryland fan. I get it now. I see what you got uptight when I said he was was douche. I was thrown off by the Cuse avatar (fan of two schools? hmmm....). And what does that mean, he talks a lot because he's a competitor? The shushing opponents crowds and hollering at fans... that's because he's competitive? Or he's a jerk? Nobody is more competitive than guys like Blake Griffin or Tyler Hansbrough and they do none of that. It's not neccessary. All it does is make you look like a huge tool.

    Yeah, everybody hates Vasquez. And everybody hates Devendorf. Congrats on having two of the most disliked players in the country on your two favorite teams.
    I grew up in Maryland rooting for UM. I went to Syracuse University and root for SU. Hmmm.... We didn't all just start enjoying college basketball when a superstar player came to our school. Hmmm.....

    You're jumping on me for no fucking reason. I didn't say shit about Vasquez's character, and when you did I said that your point was valid, and that I understood why people would think he's a jerk. The only thing I disagreed with was completely false things that you said in regards to him not being a PG until the past few games (he has been his whole career), and how he gets in fights with officials (he doesn't any more than any other player on the college level).

    If you've got a problem with people disputing things that you say that are factually wrong, then you're gonna have a tough going in life.
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    Originally Posted by efraser77 View Post
    You are the John McClane of teh Interwebz, cuz you killed it just now.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:34 PM   #30388
    Bafugama
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    You have officially won the e-Battle. You have douched it up so much that you caused me to counterattack with more doucheyness. I'm embarassed that you pushed me to that. You're a jerk, that's really all I needed to say.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by efraser77 View Post
    You are the John McClane of teh Interwebz, cuz you killed it just now.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:50 PM   #30389
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bafugama View Post
    We didn't all just start enjoying college basketball when a superstar player came to our school. Hmmm.....
    This doesn't describe Royce at all. He's been a regular contributor to this thread for quite some time.

    Last edited by clayj41; 03-24-2009 at 01:52 PM.
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    Old 03-24-2009, 01:53 PM   #30390
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    Re: Preseason NCAA Basketball Poll is released

    Patty Mills is so good.
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