I weep for the future... - Page 2 - Antsmarching.org Forums - Dave Matthews Band Discussion
Old 06-03-2009, 08:49 AM   #31
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Re: I weep for the future...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dotpsd View Post
But most of the new generation is listening to shit music and they don't even know who DMB is so "good quality" of sound doesn't matter to them at all.
I think most people think that MP3 is the same as CD quality, it's sad but very true.
Most of us just don't care, honestly.
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  • Old 06-03-2009, 08:51 AM   #32
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    I don't find it sad, I find it cool that they're realizing it
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    Old 06-03-2009, 09:08 AM   #33
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    So I just got back from Best Buy. Went over there on my lunch break to grab the "BWGK" CD while I patiently wait for my pre-ordered vinyl copy.

    As I was grabbing a copy off the display, a group of 3 kids comes over. Looked to be about 13 or so. One leans down and grabs one of the super deluxe boxes.

    Kid #1: WHOA! Is this...

    Kid #2: Dave Matthews?

    Kid #1: Yeah, but is this one of those, uh, the big things? [Traces big round circle with his fingers.] The big, you know, what do they call them? L....LPs?

    I realize they're young, but...


    In the future, when you go to Best Buy, please don't come back here and post what you heard 13-year old kids saying. thanks.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 09:11 AM   #34
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coldblueice View Post
    In the future, when you go to Best Buy, please don't come back here and post what you heard 13-year old kids saying. thanks.
    No one forced you to read the thread, jackass.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 09:18 AM   #35
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    No one forced you to read the thread, jackass.
    Thank you! And I have hope for the future. I am 20 and have a good 200 records to my name, so far
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    Old 06-03-2009, 09:25 AM   #36
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    There will be a large collection of vinyl from way back when (Sinatra days ba-bay!) when my grandparents pass on.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 09:38 AM   #37
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jas230314 View Post
    Thank you! And I have hope for the future. I am 20 and have a good 200 records to my name, so far
    That's what I love about it - its so easy to build a collection because used vinyl is so cheap. It's fun going into the record stores and finding awesome stuff you don't have.

    I think people misinterpreted the point behind my thread a little bit. I just thought it was an amusing story, I'm not trying to criticize anyone for their chosen media format, I just found it interesting that these kids were barely even aware of what a vinyl record is. The thread title was merely a nod to "Ferris Bueller's Day Off". Perhaps I should have titled it "Mildly amusing DMB-related anicdote from my lunch break."
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    Old 06-03-2009, 09:50 AM   #38
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Well ya, that's the thing today, kids don't care anymore. I'm 19 and I know what a vinyl is, only because my parents own a ton (even though they got rid of most of their collection, we still have some good oldies).

    The thing with kids today is they don't care about anything...everyone is lazy, therefore they don't learn and therefore don't know.

    I will say though to the topic about vinyl vs. digital, I could really care less what sounds better, I don't want to spend the money to get a vinyl and a nice sounding system to play it on. I have a standard itunes format burned to a CD that sounds damn good in my car...i'm happy with that.

    I don't think anyone can really say it is such a significant difference in sound to justify the price for a good vinyl system.

    I've heard good vinyl systems and I don't see much of a difference and i'm growing up in the generation that wants all the latest and greatest technology.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 10:02 AM   #39
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    Again, I said on good equipment. A good, high end record stylus will actually polish the grooves in your record and IMPROVE it over time. The stock stylus that comes with a shitty $100 turntable from Best Buy, yeah, that will eat your records up over time.

    Doing vinyl right is an expensive hobby, but if you truly care about sound quality and have the means to put together a good system, it blows away digital sound.

    People today especially people under 30 don't even want to pay for music! With torrents, sendspace, things like limewire and napster in the old days make getting music free. Hell, even most people on here were trying to download all the leaks off the internet so they could put it on their Ipod/phone and listen to it. So if people have a hard time just paying for music. Why would anyone under 30 wanna spend tons of money to get a "good" vinyl player and then buy music the way their dad did to get a slighty better sound quality that isn't mobile?
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    Old 06-03-2009, 10:10 AM   #40
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dontdrink36 View Post
    People today especially people under 30 don't even want to pay for music! With torrents, sendspace, things like limewire and napster in the old days make getting music free. Hell, even most people on here were trying to download all the leaks off the internet so they could put it on their Ipod/phone and listen to it. So if people have a hard time just paying for music. Why would anyone under 30 wanna spend tons of money to get a "good" vinyl player and then buy music the way their dad did to get a slighty better sound quality that isn't mobile?
    It's a hobby, like anything else. I'm under 30 (not by much these day...lol) and I love listening to vinyl. I love music and I just love the full, warm, analog sound. When I hear something like the Pandora stream of Big Whiskey, its unlistenable to me.

    Again, I'm not saying that vinyl will ever become a dominant format again, just giving some info on it to illustrate why *some people* really enjoy it.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 10:34 AM   #41
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    It's not bullshit, it's science.

    The sound on a vinyl record is an exact replica of the original waveform from the master tape. It's the sound exactly as it was recorded with no loss of frequency whatsoever.

    Digital sound, no matter how good, will always have some loss. Think of it like a loaf of bread. The analog sound on the vinyl is like a complete loaf of bread out of the oven, unsliced, completely together as it was baked.

    Digital sound is taking that loaf of bread and cutting it into slices. No matter how thin you cut the slices, you are going to lose some crumbs out of the original loaf when you do it.

    Digital sound has to be sampled at a specfic rate. The most common used is 44.1 KHz. That means that each second of the original analog sound wave is basically sliced into 44,100 pieces. That's a lot of pieces for one second, but it still is not an exact translation of the waveform.

    There's some other posters here that know the science of it better than I do, but that's the basic jist.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but they don't record directly on a vinyl, do they? I'm pretty sure that the equipment for recording and mixing is all digital now, so your your argument is not valid...
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    Old 06-03-2009, 10:44 AM   #42
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by a2thak View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but they don't record directly on a vinyl, do they? I'm pretty sure that the equipment for recording and mixing is all digital now, so your your argument is not valid...
    1. Not all bands record digitally, some still go to analog tape. Many of course do record digitally, but some still prefer analog.

    2. Even for bands that do record digitally, assuming they are keeping a digital master, they're recording at AT LEAST 24/96, maybe even 24/192. A standard CD isn't capable of holding the recording at that rate, so it has to be compressed for the CD. The vinyl master would come directly fron the 24/192 source straight to the vinyl, allowing the vinyl to sound superior to the CD or mp3's of the same music.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 10:51 AM   #43
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Check out this thread for some discussion on this, some of the guys here do a better job of explaining the technical side of it than I do:

    http://www.antsmarching.org/forum/sh...d.php?t=242198
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    Old 06-03-2009, 11:11 AM   #44
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    It's a hobby, like anything else. I'm under 30 (not by much these day...lol) and I love listening to vinyl. I love music and I just love the full, warm, analog sound. When I hear something like the Pandora stream of Big Whiskey, its unlistenable to me.
    I weep for you.

    You've spent so much money on something convincing yourself that it sounds better, and to you, it does, but you've gotten to the point where you can only appreciate music if it's in the so-called 'best' format?

    That really sucks for you man.

    It'd be one thing if this 'format' was an up and coming technology which was universally being adopted by the industry (HD, Blu-Ray etc...), but it's not. You are seriously limiting yourself to the things in life which you can enjoy simply because your ears are 'too good' for certain sound formats.

    I think it's great that you enjoy the sound of vinyl. I enjoy it as well. But momma told me boy some day that vinyl's gonna ruin your mind, and then you'll know. I never knew, but I do now. It's like people who enjoy alcohol and the way it makes them feel. There's nothing wrong with having some drinks and getting drunk. But when you get to the point where alcohol is required to have a good time, you have a problem. You become dependent on something to make you feel a certain way. It's okay to enjoy vinyl, just don't let it prevent you from enjoying music in other formats because that would be sadder than a kid being mesmerized by an LP.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 11:20 AM   #45
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    I wouldn't be nearly that harsh, as people can enjoy what they like for their hobbies.

    But I've always been thankful to have never gotten into audio or video stuff as a hobby from a quality/equipment standpoint. I prefer to just enjoy movies and music and not obsess over the technical stuff.

    But hey, if that's something people enjoy as a hobby, more power to them so no need to be so condescending toward audiophiles or videophiles.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 11:36 AM   #46
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bluecow2 View Post
    Bullshit.
    actually vinyl is the best quality sound. the studio master is EXACTLY copied on to the LP with the only limitation being the size of the molecules the record is made of. Any digital copy is a series of samples from the original recording. When people talk about the bitrate of an audio file that talks about how many samples per second are taken. With an LP its like having a bitrate of infinity. That said though, if you don't have stellar equiptment and put work into making sure your records stay clean then the sound quality will degrade to worse than CDs. Too many people think of LPs as being all hiss and pops... it is actually the superior medium for sound.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 11:44 AM   #47
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by a2thak View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but they don't record directly on a vinyl, do they? I'm pretty sure that the equipment for recording and mixing is all digital now, so your your argument is not valid...
    yeah well the "slicing of the bread" happens when it is digitally recorded. on vinyl they record it directly to vinyl which is lossless and for digitial the computer makes a code for the samples it takes from the microphone (on the BWGGK cd this is 128,000 times a second).
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    Old 06-03-2009, 11:45 AM   #48
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by duofiowa View Post
    I weep for you.

    You've spent so much money on something convincing yourself that it sounds better, and to you, it does, but you've gotten to the point where you can only appreciate music if it's in the so-called 'best' format?

    That really sucks for you man.

    It'd be one thing if this 'format' was an up and coming technology which was universally being adopted by the industry (HD, Blu-Ray etc...), but it's not. You are seriously limiting yourself to the things in life which you can enjoy simply because your ears are 'too good' for certain sound formats.

    I think it's great that you enjoy the sound of vinyl. I enjoy it as well. But momma told me boy some day that vinyl's gonna ruin your mind, and then you'll know. I never knew, but I do now. It's like people who enjoy alcohol and the way it makes them feel. There's nothing wrong with having some drinks and getting drunk. But when you get to the point where alcohol is required to have a good time, you have a problem. You become dependent on something to make you feel a certain way. It's okay to enjoy vinyl, just don't let it prevent you from enjoying music in other formats because that would be sadder than a kid being mesmerized by an LP.
    You weep for me because I don't enjoy listening to a horrible, 96kbps stream of an album that I can listen to in far greater quality on CD or vinyl? Go listen to the Pandora stream. Then listen to Big Whiskey on CD and tell me you can't hear the difference. Listen to how tinny and hollow the drums and bass sound on the stream compared to how warm and full they sound on the album.

    I'm not 'convincing myself' that something sounds better. It's a fact. Some people don't have sensitive enough ears to hear the difference, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

    I think you're misinterpreting me here. I never said I only listen to vinyl. My CD collection numbers in the thousands. I listen to the vast majority of my music on CD. I download the live shows and internet exclusive things I can't purchase. If there's something I want to hear and the only way to get it is on a 128kbps mp3, then that's what I do. But if I have the option, I'm obviously going to choose the highest fidelity possible. What's so wrong with that?

    And, there have been advancements in digital sound that make the formats so close to pure that human ears can't tell the difference, like SACDs, and DVD-Audio. Unfortunately, those formats never caught on enough to make them a viable media. The standard CDs that we buy in the store are the exact same ones that first appeared in the mid-80s. Do you own a digital camera? It's like if we all continued to only use 2.0 megapixel cameras even though the technology is available to make much better ones. If the record industry can exploit Blu-Ray technology to its fullest potential as an audio format, I'll be beyond stoked.
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    Last edited by AlexK79; 06-03-2009 at 11:47 AM.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 11:46 AM   #49
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jamesscherer View Post
    actually vinyl is the best quality sound. the studio master is EXACTLY copied on to the LP with the only limitation being the size of the molecules the record is made of. Any digital copy is a series of samples from the original recording. When people talk about the bitrate of an audio file that talks about how many samples per second are taken. With an LP its like having a bitrate of infinity. That said though, if you don't have stellar equiptment and put work into making sure your records stay clean then the sound quality will degrade to worse than CDs. Too many people think of LPs as being all hiss and pops... it is actually the superior medium for sound.
    Thank you, I think this explains it better than I've been attempting to.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 12:00 PM   #50
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    You weep for me because I don't enjoy listening to a horrible, 96kbps stream of an album that I can listen to in far greater quality on CD or vinyl? Go listen to the Pandora stream. Then listen to Big Whiskey on CD and tell me you can't hear the difference. Listen to how tinny and hollow the drums and bass sound on the stream compared to how warm and full they sound on the album.

    I'm not 'convincing myself' that something sounds better. It's a fact. Some people don't have sensitive enough ears to hear the difference, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
    That's a misrepresentation of many of us who aren't audiophiles though.

    I can tell a difference between the stream and the CD for sure. Yet I still was able to enjoy the hell out of listening to the stream last week. I can also tell the difference between the CD and the 128kbps MP3s I rip of all my albums and do most of my listening to for convenience (and rip at that size to get more on my MP3 players).

    Some of us just don't care as much about the sound quality and just like listening to music. Like I said, I'm tone deaf pretty much, don't play any instruments, can't sing, and don't know the first thing about song writing or music theory. I just like listening to music, and clearly I do it much less critically than someone like you.

    And I'm the same way with video. I have an HDTV and bought a Blu Ray player. But I have over 300 DVDs that I'm still perfectly fine watching, and don't feel compelled to upgrade many to Blu Ray. The movie is just as good, content wise, regardless of the resolution. But to videophiles, the resolution is part of their hobby and enjoyment, and many have ditched any DVD they could replace with a Blu Ray.

    But there's nothing wrong with either view. It's hobbies and people should enjoy them however they see fit. No need for people like me to insult (or weep for) the audio/video philes who need good quality to enjoy a move, nor for them to weep for those of us who just like music and movies etc. and are less picky about the quality.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 12:30 PM   #51
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmaul1114 View Post
    That's a misrepresentation of many of us who aren't audiophiles though.

    I can tell a difference between the stream and the CD for sure. Yet I still was able to enjoy the hell out of listening to the stream last week. I can also tell the difference between the CD and the 128kbps MP3s I rip of all my albums and do most of my listening to for convenience (and rip at that size to get more on my MP3 players).

    Some of us just don't care as much about the sound quality and just like listening to music. Like I said, I'm tone deaf pretty much, don't play any instruments, can't sing, and don't know the first thing about song writing or music theory. I just like listening to music, and clearly I do it much less critically than someone like you.
    ...
    But there's nothing wrong with either view. It's hobbies and people should enjoy them however they see fit. No need for people like me to insult (or weep for) the audio/video philes who need good quality to enjoy a move, nor for them to weep for those of us who just like music and movies etc. and are less picky about the quality.
    Thank you for clarifying that.

    I'm not arguing that there is no difference in the sound. I'm not saying I can't tell the difference between certain formats. I'm saying the quality of the format has no effect on my ability to enjoy the music. I sat here and listened to the coffee shop leak of LITHOG and thoroughly enjoyed it. Do I PREFER to listen to a coffee shop cell phone recording? Absolutely not. Is it more enjoyable to hear on the CD, yes. But I still was able to enjoy it. I don't need to hear the cloth on Dave's shirt rubbing together when he strums or the chomping of Carter's gum as he plays in order to get the full effect of the song and enjoy it. Hobby or not, people have problems enjoying something for what it is instead of comparing it to something else. Sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the OTPHJ, even if it's not exactly what you wanted.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 12:33 PM   #52
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    Vinyl supporters didn't give up long ago. Vinyl sales rose 56% last year, while all other media dropped. And that's just new vinyl - it doesn't take into account the scads of used records that are purchased by vinyl junkies all the time.

    Look, vinyl records are never going to be the dominant format again. No one ever implied that they were. People today are willing to sacrifice sound quality for ease, convenience, and portability. Some people have tin ears and can't tell the difference between a 128kbps mp3 file and a lossless .flac file.
    No it's absolutely making a comeback...just as it did in 1993, that was kinda my point. I think it will come and go in waves, but I strongly believe it's driven more by nostalgia than quality.

    Edit: PArticularly because most of the people buying the new DMB album in Vinyl or new Coldplay album in vinyl aren't going to have strong enough equipment to make it worthwhile from a sound standpoint.

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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:15 PM   #53
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Something smacks of fake in the OP's story, but whatever.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:27 PM   #54
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DMBBeav View Post
    Something smacks of fake in the OP's story, but whatever.

    Ummm...ok. Why the hell would I make that up?
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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:30 PM   #55
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    Re: I weep for the future...

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    Originally Posted by AlexK79 View Post
    Ummm...ok. Why the hell would I make that up?
    I believe you in full...but did a 13 year old really call it an "LP" versus a "record". I'm impressed they would even know the term "LP"
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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:33 PM   #56
    AlexK79
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bluecow2 View Post
    No it's absolutely making a comeback...just as it did in 1993, that was kinda my point. I think it will come and go in waves, but I strongly believe it's driven more by nostalgia than quality.

    Edit: PArticularly because most of the people buying the new DMB album in Vinyl or new Coldplay album in vinyl aren't going to have strong enough equipment to make it worthwhile from a sound standpoint.

    The bolded is very true.

    Wow...I didn't intend this thread to turn into a giant digital vs. analog argument. Just had a funny encounter that was semi-DMB/BWGK related so wanted to share.

    Let's all enjoy Big Whiskey, on CD, mp3, vinyl, 8-track, reel-to-reel, cassette, whatever you prefer.
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    Last edited by AlexK79; 06-03-2009 at 01:35 PM.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:34 PM   #57
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    LP is how it's listed in ADs, on band sites etc. So the kid probably read about it online somewhere that referred to it as an LP.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:35 PM   #58
    AlexK79
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bluecow2 View Post
    I believe you in full...but did a 13 year old really call it an "LP" versus a "record". I'm impressed they would even know the term "LP"
    Lol. He did. That kinda surprised me too. He was kind of searching for the term, like "L......L....., LP?"
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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:54 PM   #59
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    I would like to add that no matter what format you listen to Big Whiskey, it freakin rocks!!!! I must've listened to it 4-5 times on pandora, then went and bought the CD on my lunch break yesterday...there are so many awesome songs I can't get enough of it.
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    Old 06-03-2009, 01:57 PM   #60
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    Re: I weep for the future...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by a2thak View Post
    I would like to add that no matter what format you listen to Big Whiskey, it freakin rocks!!!! I must've listened to it 4-5 times on pandora, then went and bought the CD on my lunch break yesterday...there are so many awesome songs I can't get enough of it.



    Absolutely. I grabbed the CD on my lunch break yesterday, and my vinyl and LT 15 got dropped off this afternoon. I've listened to it about 4x through now and I'm blown away. I really didn't know if they had it in them to make an album this good again. Thoroughly impressed. LITHOG is EPIC.
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