Proof Of The New Theory: Unreleased Songs IS The Album

[TMoore4075]

Yeah I don't hear it. Grace is Gone I'm almost 100% sure was during the Summer So Far sessions. Bartender was what some were calling #58 or Reconcile our Differences being played D&T as an intro to DDTW in early 99.

[brobb]

Originally Posted by jaymas9

Seriously? Beside the first two albums (which don't even count, because they were a new band, he became their producer after hearing their catalog, produces those songs and because no producer produces a band for their first album without a catalog already...you have to go in with stuff the first time you do it) when did he dedicate an entire album to their unreleased material? He used one complete song between tLWS and BTCS (Halloween), that's it. He took two ideas in dont burn the pig and leave me praying, and helped turn them into completely different songs. So liberally speaking he did it for 3 songs on one of two albums...and I'm supposed to believe we have evidence to support we'll get an album of almost finished material we've heard before?

Tell me you see how this makes no sense. Not to mention, the last time he worked with the band...it was all new material, he has never (outside of the first two albums), just recorded and tweaked near finished/finished songs...it has never happened. And that is still not mentioning the fact that....the band themselves has not done this the last two albums they have made, and in fact ignored their already finished songs for all new material...there's no reason to think that would change either, and that behavior is more recent.

Essentially, there is so much more evidence to support the fact this will be mostly new material versus mostly old.

Personally, I hope the album is mostly new material, but I can hardly say there isn't a chance that they worked on a lot of the old/new material that has yet to make it on an official studio album. Right now, the band's unrecorded catalogue is about as big or bigger than what Lillywhite came across when he first started working with the band. We have no idea how he feels about these songs. Maybe he loves them, maybe he doesn't. But the difference here is that by the time they got to the LWS, most of the songs they hadn't recorded were obsolete. This time around there are a ton of songs the band likes to play that aren't on an album, which is a little unusual for how many there are.

So, as much as I'd like all new material, it just seems a little ridiculous to say there's NO WAY that the band could be aiming to release a ton of material they've been sitting on, especially with the guidance of Steve Lillywhite.

[TMoore4075]

Originally Posted by brobb

Personally, I hope the album is mostly new material, but I can hardly say there isn't a chance that they worked on a lot of the old/new material that has yet to make it on an official studio album. Right now, the band's unrecorded catalogue is about as big or bigger than what Lillywhite came across when he first started working with the band. We have no idea how he feels about these songs. Maybe he loves them, maybe he doesn't. But the difference here is that by the time they got to the LWS, most of the songs they hadn't recorded were obsolete. This time around there are a ton of songs the band likes to play that aren't on an album, which is a little unusual for how many there are.

So, as much as I'd like all new material, it just seems a little ridiculous to say there's NO WAY that the band could be aiming to release a ton of material they've been sitting on, especially with the guidance of Steve Lillywhite.

I think it'll be a lot of new mixed with a few that were reworked that's just an idea. Anyone here who thinks they know they don't. But I am of the mind that I can't see them bringing back Steve to just help rework songs that they wrote with someone else. It would seem wasted to me.

[ERoths711]

Originally Posted by sheldonlevene

I would. Track 12.

But I get your point.

I was at Citi Field Night 2. They began playing this song that sounded like it had so much promise. It was stellar. I went home that night to find out that it was new and called "Black Jack."

A week later it resurfaced with the rest of the song, and I was thoroughly disappointed.

It would be far better with real lyrics and even better if they stuck with the intro and elaborated on that.

[TMoore4075]

Originally Posted by ERoths711

I was at Citi Field Night 2. They began playing this song that sounded like it had so much promise. It was stellar. I went home that night to find out that it was new and called "Black Jack."

A week later it resurfaced with the rest of the song, and I was thoroughly disappointed.

It would be far better with real lyrics and even better if they stuck with the intro and elaborated on that.

I can agree with this. IMO, the song got worse as it evolved. The earlier versions I thought had promise.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by Julia Roberts

http://antsmarching.org/tour/songtourfull.php

You could argue it with Jake. Maybe Jake's wrong.
And I could be wrong but I thought Kind Intentions became Bartender. But now that I listen to KI again I don't hear Bartender.

This is completely different than taking near finished songs and making an entire album with them which is what a lot of people think are happening. Small ideas/parts that got into other songs or became a bit of a song...is not the same...at all. Taking the 04 songs, 06 songs, Break For It, Blackjack...and making an album out of them....is not the same thing.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by brobb

Personally, I hope the album is mostly new material, but I can hardly say there isn't a chance that they worked on a lot of the old/new material that has yet to make it on an official studio album. Right now, the band's unrecorded catalogue is about as big or bigger than what Lillywhite came across when he first started working with the band. We have no idea how he feels about these songs. Maybe he loves them, maybe he doesn't. But the difference here is that by the time they got to the LWS, most of the songs they hadn't recorded were obsolete. This time around there are a ton of songs the band likes to play that aren't on an album, which is a little unusual for how many there are.

So, as much as I'd like all new material, it just seems a little ridiculous to say there's NO WAY that the band could be aiming to release a ton of material they've been sitting on, especially with the guidance of Steve Lillywhite.

I want new material, I know that...I'm just saying...the band itself has not done this...for awhile, why would they change that MO now? They didn't record old music on the last two records, why would I believe they will start now, especially in getting back together with Lillywhite? That's really all I'm trying to say. It's more of a jump to think that yea, they'll record a bunch of finished/almost finished crap even though they haven't done that in a studio in forever, and oh by the way, they brought back the producer they made their best work with to do just that. I think that outcome, is way more of a leap, than all/mostly new songs.

[ERoths711]

Originally Posted by TMoore4075

I can agree with this. IMO, the song got worse as it evolved. The earlier versions I thought had promise.

I'll go further and say that Citi was the only good version because it only included the intro. The other parts are lame and contrived. Too similar to Corn Bread in structure. Should have stuck with the beginning. It can be fun live, just like corn bread can, but it's not a good song.

[ERoths711]

I think that we all can agree that we at least want Shotgun on the album, and probably also Idea of You and Sugar Will.

Songs I wouldn't mind making the cut as well:

Crazy Easy
Break For It
Break Free

The rest I want to be new.

[Julia Roberts]

Originally Posted by TMoore4075

But I am of the mind that I can't see them bringing back Steve to just help rework songs that they wrote with someone else. It would seem wasted to me.

I agree. And I can't see any way that happens.

[AntzDigger7]

Originally Posted by ERoths711

I'll go further and say that Citi was the only good version because it only included the intro. The other parts are lame and contrived. Too similar to Corn Bread in structure. Should have stuck with the beginning. It can be fun live, just like corn bread can, but it's not a good song.

i don't know how you compare the structure of corn bread to the structure of black jack. same structure in that they both have titles with two words?

[brobb]

Originally Posted by jaymas9

I want new material, I know that...I'm just saying...the band itself has not done this...for awhile, why would they change that MO now? They didn't record old music on the last two records, why would I believe they will start now, especially in getting back together with Lillywhite? That's really all I'm trying to say. It's more of a jump to think that yea, they'll record a bunch of finished/almost finished crap even though they haven't done that in a studio in forever, and oh by the way, they brought back the producer they made their best work with to do just that. I think that outcome, is way more of a leap, than all/mostly new songs.

Yeah but that's just the thing. Recording old songs and working with Steve Lillywhite are two things they haven't done in a long time. He's actually the only producer of theirs to do it successfully. All of the other producer's were chosen for a "new direction", whereas this time there has been zero talk about the album. If someone was going to work with and fine tune their old material, it just seems like it would have to be Lillywhite.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by AntzDigger7

i don't know how you compare the structure of corn bread to the structure of black jack. same structure in that they both have titles with two words?

Fast, almost scat verses at some part. Both have wailing choruses...and another chorus thing with kind of sung words "you don't give up, you don't survive... "you aint never had my cornbread, a little bit of heaven..." There's similarities.

[Julia Roberts]

Originally Posted by jaymas9

This is completely different than taking near finished songs and making an entire album with them which is what a lot of people think are happening. Small ideas/parts that got into other songs or became a bit of a song...is not the same...at all. Taking the 04 songs, 06 songs, Break For It, Blackjack...and making an album out of them....is not the same thing.

So you do think some old songs will be reworked into new songs? I agree.

[ravens24]

anyone have hurricane recording??/

[swilson160]

Way too much effort is being expended here trying to derive patterns of behavior from the band & SL's previous album recording sessions and using that to predict what this album will be.

Maybe the band will do something similar to what they have done in the past. Maybe they'll do something totally different.

After all, they just returned to SL after over a decade. That's a sea change in their approach to recording. So trying to divine how this album will turn out based on how the last couple albums turned out doesn't make all that much sense.

And comparing their previous sessions with SL isn't valid anymore. When they last recorded together, the band was younger, less mature, less experienced and SL was still their first major producer. Now, they're 20-year vets who have recorded with several producers, have a much deeper catalog and have a significantly different membership. It seems very likely that the dynamic between the band and SL is totally different from the past, and so trying to predict how these sessions will go down based on how their past sessions together went down is just not reasonable.

We may get all old songs. We may get all new songs. Or we may get something in between. I personally think it will be mostly new songs with maybe 1-2 old ones, and a bonus disc with another 1-2 old songs mixed with a couple new ones. But I have no basis for that other than my gut. All I know is, the current sessions are sufficiently different from past sessions that we shouldn't be making predictions about the former based on the latter. And if anyone does try to figure it out that way and ends up being right, it will just be a lucky guess.

[jaymas9]

Originally Posted by Julia Roberts

So you do think some old songs will be reworked into new songs? I agree.

Maybe a riff, or an idea, absolutely, that is very possible, and has happened. I just think there's not chance they record an album full of unreleased, finished/near finished songs. Really, the only two songs in that category I'd even want Lillywhite to look at are Shotgun and Sugar Will. But could an old idea resurface, sure. If an old idea surfaces, I'd want toy soldiers (yes I consider that more of an idea, dressed in black was too finished to be an idea to me), the gravedigger intro with the awesome lyrics, or the some devil intro from radio city.

[*loverulesme*]

This thread is a big bummer--much more so now than 2 days ago because back then I didn't believe the OP's theory could be true--even though it was well articulated/made many good points.

[Funkhouser]

Originally Posted by ravens24

anyone have hurricane recording??/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofjn3T7G84U

Really hope this tune got worked on. It has so much promise. The music is beautiful.

[blumathu]

Originally Posted by swilson160

Way too much effort is being expended here trying to derive patterns of behavior from the band & SL's previous album recording sessions and using that to predict what this album will be.

Maybe the band will do something similar to what they have done in the past. Maybe they'll do something totally different.

After all, they just returned to SL after over a decade. That's a sea change in their approach to recording. So trying to divine how this album will turn out based on how the last couple albums turned out doesn't make all that much sense.

And comparing their previous sessions with SL isn't valid anymore. When they last recorded together, the band was younger, less mature, less experienced and SL was still their first major producer. Now, they're 20-year vets who have recorded with several producers, have a much deeper catalog and have a significantly different membership. It seems very likely that the dynamic between the band and SL is totally different from the past, and so trying to predict how these sessions will go down based on how their past sessions together went down is just not reasonable.

We may get all old songs. We may get all new songs. Or we may get something in between. I personally think it will be mostly new songs with maybe 1-2 old ones, and a bonus disc with another 1-2 old songs mixed with a couple new ones. But I have no basis for that other than my gut. All I know is, the current sessions are sufficiently different from past sessions that we shouldn't be making predictions about the former based on the latter. And if anyone does try to figure it out that way and ends up being right, it will just be a lucky guess.

Well said

[scarbdp]

Originally Posted by swilson160

Way too much effort is being expended here trying to derive patterns of behavior from the band & SL's previous album recording sessions and using that to predict what this album will be.

Maybe the band will do something similar to what they have done in the past. Maybe they'll do something totally different.

After all, they just returned to SL after over a decade. That's a sea change in their approach to recording. So trying to divine how this album will turn out based on how the last couple albums turned out doesn't make all that much sense.

And comparing their previous sessions with SL isn't valid anymore. When they last recorded together, the band was younger, less mature, less experienced and SL was still their first major producer. Now, they're 20-year vets who have recorded with several producers, have a much deeper catalog and have a significantly different membership. It seems very likely that the dynamic between the band and SL is totally different from the past, and so trying to predict how these sessions will go down based on how their past sessions together went down is just not reasonable.

We may get all old songs. We may get all new songs. Or we may get something in between. I personally think it will be mostly new songs with maybe 1-2 old ones, and a bonus disc with another 1-2 old songs mixed with a couple new ones. But I have no basis for that other than my gut. All I know is, the current sessions are sufficiently different from past sessions that we shouldn't be making predictions about the former based on the latter. And if anyone does try to figure it out that way and ends up being right, it will just be a lucky guess.

well said and completely agree with this...you know, logic and stuff

[bradnessjk]

heres the story morning glory, from what i understand their coming out with a new album, or release as you kids call it these days right? now if this so called new album has the idea of you and all the other songs we love so much, and,... why do we love them? because we have them on other releases persay! if crazy easy and sugar will are on this album, it wouldnt be new. now if hurricane was on this, thats ok... never been out there like the others...so new... its new..not old.. new. praise the lord and lets dance and sing this summer! lol perhaps they secretly were in the studio without anyone knowing last year and kept it a fckin secret... damn technology ruins everything... yet baldness cant be cured! wtf?

[bubba40]

Originally Posted by bradnessjk

heres the story morning glory, from what i understand their coming out with a new album, or release as you kids call it these days right? now if this so called new album has the idea of you and all the other songs we love so much, and,... why do we love them? because we have them on other releases persay! if crazy easy and sugar will are on this album, it wouldnt be new. now if hurricane was on this, thats ok... never been out there like the others...so new... its new..not old.. new. praise the lord and lets dance and sing this summer! lol perhaps they secretly were in the studio without anyone knowing last year and kept it a fckin secret... damn technology ruins everything... yet baldness cant be cured! wtf?

[SpotlightEyes]

I have hopes for this album, and I'm not ashamed to say that its ONLY because of Steve Lillywhite. I've really lost confidence in Dave's ability/desire to write quality songs. However, I have NOT lost confidence in Steve Lillywhite's mandate that music meet his standards, or not carry his name at all.

Before you flame the shit out of me, anyone who can write Cornbread, and then turn it in to the dog shit that it is today, deserves a second thought about his current ability to write music.

I realize he HAS written better stuff, and during the same time period, but that doesn't change the fact that 2010 and 2011 suffered through a ton of, "All I wanna do is go down on you." Like, shut the fuck up, seriously. We're not 12. No one finds that amusing.

The same people who come hoping to hear Typical Situation don't want to hear that shit.

Sorry, end rant. Can't wait for the album, its going to be awesome, because Lillywhite won't allow it to suck.

[jas230314]

Originally Posted by swilson160

Way too much effort is being expended here trying to derive patterns of behavior from the band & SL's previous album recording sessions and using that to predict what this album will be.

Maybe the band will do something similar to what they have done in the past. Maybe they'll do something totally different.

After all, they just returned to SL after over a decade. That's a sea change in their approach to recording. So trying to divine how this album will turn out based on how the last couple albums turned out doesn't make all that much sense.

And comparing their previous sessions with SL isn't valid anymore. When they last recorded together, the band was younger, less mature, less experienced and SL was still their first major producer. Now, they're 20-year vets who have recorded with several producers, have a much deeper catalog and have a significantly different membership. It seems very likely that the dynamic between the band and SL is totally different from the past, and so trying to predict how these sessions will go down based on how their past sessions together went down is just not reasonable.

We may get all old songs. We may get all new songs. Or we may get something in between. I personally think it will be mostly new songs with maybe 1-2 old ones, and a bonus disc with another 1-2 old songs mixed with a couple new ones. But I have no basis for that other than my gut. All I know is, the current sessions are sufficiently different from past sessions that we shouldn't be making predictions about the former based on the latter. And if anyone does try to figure it out that way and ends up being right, it will just be a lucky guess.

Divine means of or having to do with God.

The word you're looking for is define.

[thestand]

Originally Posted by jas230314

Divine means of or having to do with God.

The word you're looking for is define.

The noun does. The verb's Latin routes are basically "to discover". Actually works as used there, though it isn't common.

[jas230314]

Originally Posted by SpotlightEyes

I have hopes for this album, and I'm not ashamed to say that its ONLY because of Steve Lillywhite. I've really lost confidence in Dave's ability/desire to write quality songs. However, I have NOT lost confidence in Steve Lillywhite's mandate that music meet his standards, or not carry his name at all.

Before you flame the shit out of me, anyone who can write Cornbread, and then turn it in to the dog shit that it is today, deserves a second thought about his current ability to write music.

I realize he HAS written better stuff, and during the same time period, but that doesn't change the fact that 2010 and 2011 suffered through a ton of, "All I wanna do is go down on you." Like, shut the fuck up, seriously. We're not 12. No one finds that amusing.

The same people who come hoping to hear Typical Situation don't want to hear that shit.

Sorry, end rant. Can't wait for the album, its going to be awesome, because Lillywhite won't allow it to suck.

You bring up a good point in the beginning of this point. A lot of the concern/excitement regarding the upcoming album has to do with the two following points, which are almost entirely agreed upon:

1) Steve Lillywhite has been the best producer DMB ever had, and his approach to DMB definitely makes for better texture and overall sound.

2) Dave Matthews' writing ability has seemingly diminished over the years - specifically since the Lillywhite Sessions.

There are a few other things that play into all of our debates on these boards...

- Lillywhite openly says that Everyday (and Stand Up) were horrible albums. He sees the same problems with those albums that the fans do.
- Lillywhite is very much aware with, and in tune with, the more hardcore DMB fans. He is a perfectionist in the studio, and likely would not release an album that is anywhere near Everyday or Stand Up.

-Dave has shown his writing ability is NOT gone. Since 2000, we've seen potentially amazing tunes (You Never Know, 2004 songs, Shotgun, Idea of You, and much of Big Whiskey).
-Dave has also put out songs that are not the best - but there are usually potential in these songs. Sweet, and quite a few songs from Everyday and Stand Up, etc, would be able to be great with Lillywhite's touch.

So the question remains, will this next album be great? Could it match the power of the Big 3 (or 4). Big Whiskey was a great album, but it didn't have the same touch that the Big 3 or 4 did. Would Lillywhite's presence have changed that?

I think so. One prime example is what role Lillywhite has in the creation of songs. Don't Drink the Water, for example, was gonna be a failed attempt in studio, when all the members of the band stormed out after they couldn't get it right. After working on it all night, Lillywhite alone took different takes, and combined them into a successful tune. His work that night is the studio track of DDTW.

My only concern is that Lillywhite cannot control one variable - lyrics. I don't know what to expect for that. All I can do is trust Lillywhite to be honest with Dave and tell say no to You & Me and go in the direction of Baby Blue or Squirm.

I trust that this album will surpass Big Whiskey. Much like Crash and BTCS sound way different, the sound on this album will be another step in this band's progression. What direction it goes in, I really do not know. I can't wait, though.

[jas230314]

Originally Posted by thestand

The noun does. The verb's Latin routes are basically "to discover". Actually works as used there, though it isn't common.

I believe you're looking for 'roots'.

just to be an asshole. I tend to correct what I see as a total misuse of a word - especially if someone is confusing 'divine' and 'define', or something similar to that - because in case the person actually doesn't know the difference, it's less embarrassing on here than on a final paper or something.

[joekrunx14]

i dont understand why people think that they would go into the studio to record songs that they have been playing live forever. that makes zero sence.... they could go into hounted hollow and do that on a weekend where they just feel like playing without lillywhite. its gunna be all new songs that hopefully takes us all on a time machine back to the 90's where the classics were just a fart in the wind!

[jas230314]

Originally Posted by joekrunx14

i dont understand why people think that they would go into the studio to record songs that they have been playing live forever. that makes zero sence.... they could go into hounted hollow and do that on a weekend where they just feel like playing without lillywhite. its gunna be all new songs that hopefully takes us all on a time machine back to the 90's where the classics were just a fart in the wind!

The reason why people are thinking this is the case, because we knew the band went into the studio with Lillywhite in early January, and that they are done already. So, that leaves about 6 weeks of time (we know of) in the studio.

Either that means we're unaware of other studio tracks, they are moving at an unprecedented rate of speed... or perhaps they could record so fast because they have the songs already written.

Also, looking back at what Lillywhite has done - pretty much 95% of Under the Table and Dreaming and Crash were completed songs, most of which were played live already, and were then recorded. As for Before These Crowded Streets, DDTW comes from 'Leave Me Praying', Pig developed from 'Don't burn the Pig', Pantala Naga Pampa from "What will Become of Me", and Halloween being the one completed song. That's all I am aware of...

So it's not that everyone thinks it might be songs we have heard because of the timing, and of course, we know Dave has worked on many songs in the studio - ie, Sugar Will for Big Whiskey.

edit: As for the bolded, the difference between what you are saying and Lillywhite's presence is the difference between the Lillywhite Sessions and Busted Stuff. There is a huge difference between Lillywhite producing and the band's people producing.