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View Poll Results: Does Objective Morality Exist?
Yes, morality is objective 38 47.50%
No, all morality is subjective 42 52.50%
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Old 08-14-2006, 04:31 PM   #1
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Does objective morality exist?

Is anything truly right or wrong? Or are our moral preferences just an expression of our personal emotions?

Last edited by MistreatedLewis; 08-14-2006 at 04:33 PM.
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  • Old 08-14-2006, 04:49 PM   #2
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Personally I don't believe in moral relativism, my problem is knowing what is truly "right" and "wrong"
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    Old 08-14-2006, 04:51 PM   #3
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmbhoosier21
    Personally I don't believe in moral relativism, my problem is knowing what is truly "right" and "wrong"
    Cool. Why don't you believe in moral relativism? Simply on religious grounds, or something else?
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    Old 08-14-2006, 04:52 PM   #4
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    I believe some things are objectively morally wrong, such as murder and rape.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 04:55 PM   #5
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    I'd say it is subjective and objective. The way I see it, most things start out subjective. But in order to move forward, subjectivity must pass a series of tests in order to establish some sort of validity to the opinions that exist. At that point, objectivity comes into play.

    So the way I see it, given the example of morals, most socities gravitate towards some establishment of order to be able to continue to function. This order is often dictated by morals. Of course morals can be subjective, but subjectivity is usually the domain of the individual, not the group. So, in order for the group to function, those subjective morals are tested, those that work are kept, those that don't are cast aside. Those tests lend objectivity to the morals. Over time, because the morals challenged, the morals might change and subjectivity may play a role once again, and yet again those new ideas and beliefs are put to some sort of test to see if society can still function in an orderly manner. Thus, the pendulum swings back and forth to a certain extent.

    That's my opinion, which is subjective, of course.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 04:57 PM   #6
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cyberhound
    I'd say it is subjective and objective. The way I see it, most things start out subjective. But in order to move forward, subjectivity must pass a series of tests in order to establish some sort of validity to the opinions that exist. At that point, objectivity comes into play.

    So the way I see it, given the example of morals, most socities gravitate towards some establishment of order to be able to continue to function. This order is often dictated by morals. Of course morals can be subjective, but subjectivity is usually the domain of the individual, not the group. So, in order for the group to function, those subjective morals are tested, those that work are kept, those that don't are cast aside. Those tests lend objectivity to the morals. Over time, because the morals challenged, the morals might change and subjectivity may play a role once again, and yet again those new ideas and beliefs are put to some sort of test to see if society can still function in an orderly manner. Thus, the pendulum swings back and forth to a certain extent.

    That's my opinion, which is subjective, of course.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 04:59 PM   #7
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MistreatedLewis
    Cool. Why don't you believe in moral relativism? Simply on religious grounds, or something else?
    I dont really know. I am really not religious. It just seems like it would be almost too easy if morality was all relative and subjective. Just seems to me that with moral relativism one (or a society) can justify and rationalize any sort of actions and beliefs.

    But at the same time I dont claim to know what is truly "right" and "wrong". In fact I am probably the farthest person from that position.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 05:02 PM   #8
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MistreatedLewis
    See you do love philosophy!
    .

    Sometimes. Posting that gave me a headache.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 05:05 PM   #9
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    IMHO

    I think it has to be one or the other

    Either morality is relative OR there is a set of universal principles governing morality.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 05:13 PM   #10
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dmbhoosier21
    IMHO

    I think it has to be one or the other

    Either morality is relative OR there is a set of universal principles governing morality.
    Yes, I think logically you have to accept one of these two claims, with the corollary that perhaps universal governing principles can change over time.

    There's also the tricky issue of what exactly subjectivity and objectivity is. For example, I know of one philosopher who argued that the statement "This is a good steak" is an objective statement because it refers to a set of qualities about the steak. The person who said it believes that good steaks are ultra-well done and flavorless. If another person who believes that good steaks are lightly cooked and very very peppery, he would say that this very same steak is bad, and the philosopher called both of these statements objective. To me, that is ridiculous. If both of these statements are valid, that both this steak is good and bad, then the statement "This steak is good" and "This steak is bad" are both true and objectively valid. But to me, if something is objectively good, it CANNOT be objectively bad as well in the same sense. Now, the philosopher and I would agree that the terms refer to the steak in two different senses. Well and good. BUT, the interesting question is WHICH of these opinions is better? If neither one is, then I don't think the goodness of the steak is an objective statement. And I think a similar thing holds for morality issues... it's an interesting question for sure.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 05:16 PM   #11
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    All I had to do is read the title and i already knew you made the thread Lewis.


    For the most part I would say objective. I'm definitely of the opinion that nurture is more important in one's building than nature.

    However, I do believe that some things are wrong no matter what: murder and rape. I don't think it is an all or nothing question.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 06:28 PM   #12
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Subjective
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    Old 08-14-2006, 06:44 PM   #13
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    The question you are really asking is not 'does an objective morality exist', but 'does objectivity exist'? If true objectivity exists then anything, by definition, can be defined objectively.

    By 'true objectivity' typically what we imply is some sort of absolute reality, absolute truth, absolute reference frame.

    As physics and mathematics has referentially proven, we are currently unable to describe any sort of logical enlightenment logically. I say 'enlightenment' because that is exactly what this sort of knowledge would be. I say 'knowledge' because there are those who claim to have 'experienced' said 'enlightenment'. Typically these are taken to be moments of religious or mystical experience. I fully believe these experiences to be 'true', however by their very nature (ie, born out of the ego of man) they are limited in their ability to be proven logically.

    Given a suitable mind, a good environment, and large doses of LSD I do believe you can experience true ego dissolution. You may laugh or chuckle or even scold, but the quickest way to this sort of experience can be had by manipulating the chemicals in your brain that inform your reality.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 06:49 PM   #14
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    I've just gone cross-eyed.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 06:52 PM   #15
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    I firmly believe there are many levels of reality about us we are unaware of.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:06 PM   #16
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    I voted no after thinking about it for a while. There are general morals and standards that are set in whatever society or family you grow up in, but everybody develops their own beliefs one way or another, and none of them are exactly the same.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:13 PM   #17
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chevman
    The question you are really asking is not 'does an objective morality exist', but 'does objectivity exist'? If true objectivity exists then anything, by definition, can be defined objectively.

    By 'true objectivity' typically what we imply is some sort of absolute reality, absolute truth, absolute reference frame.

    As physics and mathematics has referentially proven, we are currently unable to describe any sort of logical enlightenment logically. I say 'enlightenment' because that is exactly what this sort of knowledge would be. I say 'knowledge' because there are those who claim to have 'experienced' said 'enlightenment'. Typically these are taken to be moments of religious or mystical experience. I fully believe these experiences to be 'true', however by their very nature (ie, born out of the ego of man) they are limited in their ability to be proven logically.

    Given a suitable mind, a good environment, and large doses of LSD I do believe you can experience true ego dissolution. You may laugh or chuckle or even scold, but the quickest way to this sort of experience can be had by manipulating the chemicals in your brain that inform your reality.
    I agree with you that both of these questions are worth asking, but I disagree with you that one question is necessarily entailed in the other. While I believe moral objectivity is more dominant in the philosophical landscape than relativism these days, there are plenty of strong philosophical arguments that indicate that 2+2=4 is objectively true to any rationally assenting mind, or that objects fall at 9.81m/s^2, or even that we are justified in making the objective claim that Batman was played by Michael Keaton in the 1989 film, but not that any rational mind MUST assent to the statements "Abortion is always evil" or "Michael Keaton is the third best Hollywood Batman", which I think is a requirement for them to be objective statements. In this day, anyone of sound mind who argues that 2+2 =6 or that Joe Satriani is a member of DMB would be laughed out the door... the same is not true for "Carter is the best drummer who ever lived" or "The Iraq War is a moral necessity and perfectly justified." I think most people would agree that at least prima fascia there is a difference in the two kinds of statements that may be characterized as "Fact vs Opinion" which can loosely correspond to "Objective Truth and Subjective Truth." Don't you think?
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:14 PM   #18
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by the only gweeps
    I firmly believe there are many levels of reality about us we are unaware of.
    How does this relate to the thread? (Not asking this sarcastically, I think your answer to this question can lead you in either direction) - what are those levels of reality, do you suppose?
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:15 PM   #19
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by devilandthelord
    I voted no after thinking about it for a while. There are general morals and standards that are set in whatever society or family you grow up in, but everybody develops their own beliefs one way or another, and none of them are exactly the same.
    I'm glad you took the time to think about it
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:23 PM   #20
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    i don't think i understand the question.

    i think rape and murder are wrong and that everyone should agree on that. but do i think that everyone should agree on everything that is "right or wrong"? is that part of the question?

    (and i don't think everyone agrees on what constitutes "murder".)

    i don't know, i just try to do what i think is right, and i try not to judge what other people do.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:26 PM   #21
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by the only gweeps
    I firmly believe there are many levels of reality about us we are unaware of.
    You firmly believe in something that by definition you have no grounds for believing?
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:31 PM   #22
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by d+ter
    i don't think i understand the question.

    i think rape and murder are wrong and that everyone should agree on that. but do i think that everyone should agree on everything that is "right or wrong"? is that part of the question?

    (and i don't think everyone agrees on what constitutes "murder".)

    i don't know, i just try to do what i think is right, and i try not to judge what other people do.
    I guess the question is, you believe that murder is wrong, but how does this statement differ from a statement like "pre-marital sex is wrong" or "Nickleback's music is bad." What makes the statement "Murder is wrong" objectively true? Is it because of God's commandment? Is it because there are some kind of supersensible moral laws inscribed into the universe? Are they necessarily true concepts like "2+2=4" or empirically true concepts like "George Washington was the first President of the USA?" Things like that...
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:33 PM   #23
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    what does "neccessarily true" mean?
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:34 PM   #24
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tomriddle
    You firmly believe in something that by definition you have no grounds for believing?
    I don't necessarily agree that he's right, but if "being unaware of" something is = to no grounds for believing in it, then by definition we have no grounds for believing in the unconscious mind. That's a difficult trap you've just put yourself in, because I don't think you wish to deny that the unconscious mind exists, nor do I think you can argue that we are aware of the unconscious mind other than that scientists tell us it exists. We have no experiential basis for it, particularly. Just throwing that out there.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:34 PM   #25
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MistreatedLewis
    How does this relate to the thread? (Not asking this sarcastically, I think your answer to this question can lead you in either direction) - what are those levels of reality, do you suppose?
    Reality is a solid existent creation of what we witness in this life, as well as simultaneously being fluid. For some, reality is subjective because they refuse to adhere to what is before them, be it set in stone (literally) or not. Others choose a more rigid walk through this life.

    We constantly drift through the wake of others’ realities. We adapt as we can.

    This is all occurring with nature around us, its own reality, some of which we don't understand. So, does this mean it doesn't exist because we don't fathom it? Maybe for some it's as if it doesn't exist. But fishes still swim at the bottom of those vast oceans, don't they?

    Last edited by the only gweeps; 08-14-2006 at 07:37 PM.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:38 PM   #26
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by d+ter
    what does "neccessarily true" mean?
    Denying its truth would involve a contradiction.

    i.e. "Bachelors are unmarried men" is a necessarily true statement by definition of the word bachelor. However, "Matt Damon is a bachelor" is not necessarily true. It COULD be, but the definition of Matt Damon and Bachelor alone will not tell you whether the statement is true or not.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:39 PM   #27
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by the only gweeps
    Reality is a solid existent creation of what we witness in this life, as well as simultaneously being fluid. For some, reality is subjective because they refuse to adhere to what is before them, be it set in stone (literally) or not. Others choose a more rigid walk through this life.

    We constantly drift through the wake of others’ realities. We adapt as we can.

    This is all occurring with nature around us, its own reality, some of which we don't understand. So, does this mean it doesn't exist because we don't fathom it? Maybe for some it's as if it doesn't exist. But fishes still swim at the bottom of those vast oceans, don't they?
    I'm not denying the possibility of other realities, but this seems rather obscure writing to me... could you clarify, for example, what maybe one other reality that exists would be that differs from the one we commonly experience?
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:40 PM   #28
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cyberhound
    I'd say it is subjective and objective. The way I see it, most things start out subjective. But in order to move forward, subjectivity must pass a series of tests in order to establish some sort of validity to the opinions that exist. At that point, objectivity comes into play.

    So the way I see it, given the example of morals, most socities gravitate towards some establishment of order to be able to continue to function. This order is often dictated by morals. Of course morals can be subjective, but subjectivity is usually the domain of the individual, not the group. So, in order for the group to function, those subjective morals are tested, those that work are kept, those that don't are cast aside. Those tests lend objectivity to the morals. Over time, because the morals challenged, the morals might change and subjectivity may play a role once again, and yet again those new ideas and beliefs are put to some sort of test to see if society can still function in an orderly manner. Thus, the pendulum swings back and forth to a certain extent.

    That's my opinion, which is subjective, of course.

    But we're not talking about 'the group'...even if we were, lets say the majority of people think murder is wrong - that's many subjective morals "passing the test" together to make an "objective moral". But there are still some people that think murder is fine, whos to say which morality is right? The question is "is anything truly right or wrong" basically - so just because a majority of people share the same subjective morals, does that make them right? Absolutely not. I can't even agree that these subjective morals that pass a test become objective morals - they're ultimately still biased opinions of individuals, no matter how many people agree. There's really no way to say what's right and what's wrong in the true sense of the word moral. Sure, as society we have to agree on things and make rules and standards - I'm not saying we should let murderers and rapists run rampant - but I'm not right any more than the serial killer is right; and whos to say I am? We just disagree on an issue, that's all. Unfortunately for the killer, the majority of people dont see things his way, but no one is right or wrong essentially.
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    Last edited by Haiku Jimi; 08-14-2006 at 07:44 PM.
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:41 PM   #29
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MistreatedLewis
    I don't necessarily agree that he's right, but if "being unaware of" something is = to no grounds for believing in it, then by definition we have no grounds for believing in the unconscious mind. That's a difficult trap you've just put yourself in, because I don't think you wish to deny that the unconscious mind exists, nor do I think you can argue that we are aware of the unconscious mind other than that scientists tell us it exists. We have no experiential basis for it, particularly. Just throwing that out there.
    Mmm i'm not really interested in philosophy and am so not 100% informed on this subject, but if there's no evidence for the uncoinsious mind how do scientists know its there?
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    Old 08-14-2006, 07:44 PM   #30
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    Re: Does objective morality exist?

    I dunno, morality might be subjective because one person may find it easy to murder while another doesn't. A different reality for these two men. Who is correct and by what basis? The Bible? Not every part of this world holds it to be truth. The Koran? Same thing. You? Me?

    Yet one could argue that the prevalence of a ''moral compass'' in most of humanity indicates a reality which states murder is inherently wrong. So, is this an objective moral rule?
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